Thanks for the info; I appreciate it! So would yelping also be considered a punishment? (As I mentioned above, I'm no longer doing the growl, it was only for the most extreme situations and if I didn't have anything to redirect to, like we were walking into the house and she started with the super-crazy biting my ankles and wouldn't stop/respond to anything else. I did it only a handful of times. However, I do appreciate the info. I do not wish to use punishment, and in my mind it was similar to a yelp, just more effective.)
I think you have to remember that impersonating dogs is not something we're good at. So any noise or movement we make to try to copy them is normally a big fat failure There are two reasons why a growling or yelping sound might work. One is that it is punishing to the dog. The other is that it is surprising to the dog and acts as an interrupter ("what on earth is that funny noise she's making? Doesn't sound like anything I've heard before"). If it's simply surprising, then it's not necessarily punishing, but the problem is, it won't stay effective for very long unless you back it up with either a reward for the interruption working, or a punishment which means the noise is a predictor of the punishment. Punishing noises, such as growls, if effective, can also lose their efficacy over time as the dog becomes desensitised to them. In which case, you would need to increase the level of punishment in order for them to remain effective. Clearly, we don't want to do that. Basically, every time your dog changes his behaviour based on something you've done, it's because what you did was either rewarding or punishing. If it was neither, his behaviour wouldn't change. So, for a dog who is counter-surfing who gets down when he's shouted at, that shouting is punishing. The dog that gets down when given a cue finds the cue rewarding (because he knows it will be backed up with something he likes). The dog that keeps counter-surfing despite being shouted at does not find the shout punishing and hasn't been offered a more rewarding alternative, so continues with his behaviour.
It could be - as Fiona explains above. I think the withdrawal from the puppy (that is, that standard instruction is yelp and stop playing) is probably the effective thing. I think the yelp is more likely than not completely pointless or even counter productive (in that it's exciting to a lot of puppies).
I had a trainer come to the house for Cooper who is now 13 weeks. She said every time he bites nips anything with open mouth contact he should be put in his crate for 5 minutes. Does anyone do this and did it work? I'm afraid he'll start to associate his crate as a bad place.
I would say it's a consequence. So something good doesn't happen (like when they don't get a treat unless they get something right). But it's not a punishment as nothing bad happens. ...
I would stop playing and go out of the pup's way, like behind a baby gate. I wouldn't put him in the crate unless he's ready for a snooze. I very much want the crate to be a happy place for them so that they are fine when left alone.
Yes it is. It's negative punishment. You take something away (your interaction), which the dog finds punishing. So, in the ideal world, we'd train with just positive reinforcement (adding something, which the dog likes). But sometimes, some minor negative punishment speeds things up. This is true of stopping still when your dog pulls on lead, too. So, you have to decide for yourself what your boundaries are. Do you want to be 100% +R, which means no -P. Or do you aspire to be force-free, in which case, some -P is OK - although you should still try to use as much +R as possible....
Yes. Most positive trainers use 2 quadrants: R+ and P-. I don't think that it needs to be an aspiration to remove the use of P- because it's a critical plank of positive training to remove a reinforcer, or prevent access, when undesirable behaviour occurs. Positive training just does not work if you don't do this. You can run into problems if you repeatedly set a dog up to fail with the intention of removing something he wants when he fails - I think this can become stressful for the dog if done over and over.
Gotcha. Sorry for the minor derail, but I do appreciate the distinctions - my previous two dogs, I used a lot more "correction," aka punishment, as that was the standard at the time (well, my poor first dog - it was 1994, so the Monks of New Skete's book was our bible, even though we didn't implement it as harshly as they wrote it). So this is new territory and I do understand and agree with positive training, but these areas are where it gets confusing for me.
I'm sitting here crying because I'm so tired of getting mauled by my dear Libby. The bites are awful. As my husband is over there snoozing in his recliner, I deal with the landshark for 2 hours every evening (actually it starts the minute I get out of bed in the morning. I get a break at work). She doesn't do this to my husband, only to me. The obedience trainer says to put her in time out for 20-30 seconds. We've done that over and over tonight until finally I get so discouraged that she's behind the baby gate until bedtime. I just need a little peace and quiet! When will this ever stop? What is wrong with me? Why does she pick on me so bad? All I want is a little quality time with my dog every night and it is a continual battle. I hate having to put her time out every night but I can't continue to have her chew my hands and ankles like this.
She's not picking on you babs, she's trying to play with you in a way that doesn't work. Play with her but don't let your hands near her teeth. Time out doesn't teach the dog much, it just gives you a break. Stopping play when she makes contact with skin will work - if you get up and leave the room for 30 seconds or so. Put toys or chews in her mouth. Concentrate and be more determined than she is. Play tuggy and throw toys for her to bring back, do 'search' games with some kibble out of her food allowance. If she's light enough picking her up and holding a chew in her mouth will help too. When you don't have time or energy to concentrate put her behind the baby gate with a kong - she'll be just fine. Don't wait until you are at the end of your tether. Put her there when you can't concentrate on 'play training'. She WILL get the idea, they all do. ...
