​Why does the Tsst noise interrupt a dog's behaviour

Discussion in 'Labrador Training' started by pippa@labforumHQ, Aug 20, 2015.

  1. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    ​I thought this might be an interesting discussion following on from the one we were having in the puppy thread.
    I am just wondering who uses the Tsst or Tshhh noise to interrupt their dog's behaviour, and why do you think it works. I am not judging by the way, I use it occasionally myself and I will explain when and why :)
     
  2. Yvonne

    Yvonne Registered Users

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    I think it's more because he (my pup) doesn't know where it's coming from so he stops what he is doing to look around for it. I don't use it much....only when he goes bonkers after his meals and attacks the cushions on the sofa.
    He does this ONLY after eating! Extraordinary!
     
  3. Karen

    Karen Registered Users

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    I use it sometimes, particularly in a situation where we are supposed to be quiet (like waiting in line for our turn during dummy training), if Poppy gets very fixated on something else. Then I will sometimes make a very quiet tssssssss noise, which she clearly hears and which switches her focus back to me. It is useful in that situation because it is very audible to the dog, but doesn't travel far and so doesn't disturb anybody else.
     
  4. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I used to use it with Riley and I stopped because after the surprise/curiosity factor wore off it didn't mean anything so he ignored it. I do use ah-ah occasionally and that works because I sound cross so it's aversive. I try hard to follow it with an upbeat voice when they break away from whatever I didn't want them to do. I'm about to embark on training a whiplash turn from Control Unleashed so I have a proper trained and proofed alternative to just saying no don't do that.
     
  5. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I used it once - as instructed by a gundog trainer, delivered in an angry way with annoyed body language. It startled my dog, not massively (he is quite robust to noise). It worked because it was in itself quite a startling noise. I think if I had carried on using it, which I didn't, it could have become a "you are in trouble" noise. Or it might have stopped having any effect if I wasn't scary enough and he got used to the noise.

    These days, I can say anything to get his attention (kiwi, banana, hippopotamus) when circumstances aren't challenging, but I have a "turn towards me" positively trained interrupter (a tongue click click) which is very effective.
     
  6. David

    David Registered Users

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    I use it to attract Lady's attention without the use of either a whistle or a verbal command. It carries quite a long way without being loud.
     
  7. Boogie

    Boogie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Does it work because it sounds like a snake?
     
  8. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Hmmm....I bet the sound contains high frequency components - dogs find high frequency noises irritating.
     
  9. MaccieD

    MaccieD Guest

    I don't particularly use a Tsst or Tshhh noise, I tend to use Ahh, ahh to gain attention or just aahm as I can use different tone or emphasis on the sound. I find it useful, particularly on one of our weekly dog walks when we have numerous dogs running around and you need to stop one quickly from running under a fence into a field of cows .........or after a cyclist.
     
  10. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I think the original question is excellent - and I think it applies equally to other noises we make.

    Any noise we make works (or does not work) for a reason. Magic noises do not exist.

    I think that a noise that gets your dog's attention:

    a) Is just a noise, and your dog is in a (desirable) state where he is sort of wanting to know what you want next, so looks round at you on any noise you happen make.

    B) Means something good to the dog (ie you have conditioned the dog with rewards to respond to a certain noise).

    c) Means something bad to the dog (ie the noise itself, or your tone, conveys something unpleasant, or you have conditioned the dog to expect something negative - even just your displeasure).

    And training via c) then swapping to giving treats when the dog responds does not wipe out how you trained it in the first place.
     
  11. David

    David Registered Users

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    b) applies in my case.
     
  12. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    Both a and b apply to me.

    a) If we're on lead and walking to heel with minimal distractions, there can be a bit of fading from perfect position after a while. I put this down to lapse in concentration and a word or noise (any word or noise) would remind them they're doing a job and bring them back. It's similar to when you see your dog self-correcting (Willow does this occasionally), where she takes a step or two forwards and then immediately looks back to me and falls back to position. This absolutely would not work if there was a "real" distraction that we're not proofed against yet.

    b) I'm also teaching them to focus on me when I make a kissing sound (great for up close) and, from further away, turning back towards me when I say "pup pup". This is in addition to the default focus I expect (have trained for) during our formal training sessions.

    I don't think the noise necessarily matters, but the tone does. For me, it's never crossed my mind to say "tsst", but I have found myself saying "ah ah", which I try to avoid because I'm trying (trying) to only give positive affirmations when they're doing something good and keep in mind that, if they're not doing what I've asked, it's my fault for asking too much, and not theirs.
     
  13. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I would love to be able to say I only fall into a and b but that's not true. I do express disapproval to my dogs sometimes. I'm under no illusion and I am using punishment. Mild and rare but punishment nonetheless. I think it's important to be honest (primarily with myself) about this otherwise how can I strive to replace that with positive interaction and training :)
     
  14. David

    David Registered Users

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    I use Ah! Ah! To check Lady if she's doing something I don't want her to do when we are "working". She just ignores me at other times! :rolleyes:
     
  15. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I make mistakes - I spent time with a trainer who trained me to say AH-Ah and No! in a cross way, and this does slip out although I hate it when I do it, and it is wearing off but still, I sometimes do it - and it's useless anyway because he usually turns away from me and does a "I'm not playing then" distracted sniff, which is not usually what I want.

    And today Charlie lunged at another dog and gave my shoulder a right jerk and I said "oooof! Charlie!" in a cross voice.

    But those human failings aside, I stick to a) and b).
     
  16. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    Ah yes, I think we can all be forgiven for being human at those times - like this morning, when I got an elbow in the eye socket. Ooch!
     
  17. David

    David Registered Users

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    My Ah! Ah! is more of a reminder than a scold. For example if she dumps the dummy at my feet instead of sitting and delivering to hand. I just look at her and if necessary go Ah! quietly just the once and I kid you not you can see the cogs go around in her head as she remembers and picks the dummy and then hands it to me. :D
     
  18. Karen

    Karen Registered Users

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    But, I really don't understand how to react in certain situations, if you do not have a way to show a dog that he has just done something you really don't like - for instance lunging at another dog, or suddenly snatching something from you. I think there are times you need to have an aversive (is that the right term?). So for instance, Charlie suddenly dragged Julie sharply, hurting her shoulder. Instinctively I feel it's ok to let him know that hurt, and isn't ok. If he suddenly bumped another dog, for instance, that dog might growl, which would show him that that particular behaviour is not acceptable. What is different about using your voice in a similar way?
     
  19. David

    David Registered Users

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    I use a combination of positives and aversives. I just can't get things to work any other way. By far the majority are positive, but the odd Ah! Ah! gets thrown in to check Lady or just remind her what's needed. I'll probably get thrown out of the forum for saying so, but I think it's easily possible to over think the positive versus negative thing. I do reward when Lady does the right thing and by far the majority of my training and interaction with her is along the positive route, but I do throw in the odd verbal check during training. I never jerk the lead or drag her with it or use any other form of physical punishment.
     
  20. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I know it's not everyones cup of tea but I do enjoy cogitating over the whole thing :)

    I believe that positively trained behaviours are more robust and make for a more honest dog not one that decides you're not close enough to be a problem so chooses to do something completely different to what was asked. I think training positively is also much more fun for everyone involved and plan all my training to be +R with a little -P thrown in.

    For a significant number of dogs does a mild verbal aversive really matter?.... possibly not but I think the question is what does it teach them? Is the ah-ah for their benefit or yours? I think mine primarily is because I'm mildly irritated and I just want the dog to stop. Does it teach my dogs not to do that again? Probably not because I doubt my timing was quite right, my aversive strong enough in the light of temptation and we don't repeat it in training it's just as and when things occur so all those things add up to making my dog feel he's done "wrong" but not moving us further forward in behavioral terms.

    Some people use a "no reward" marker to try and stop the dog being frustrated and I think that leans more to your description of Lady dropping the dummy. It's a "not quite right, try again" message. Opinion seems to be divided as to whether it's any use with those against suggesting the trainer has asked too much and should go back a step rather than have to communicate an error which leads me on to.....

    The thing I struggle with most is some of the people I have these discussions with are not so much in a force free bubble but are in a training bubble where every interaction with the dog seems planned and is part of a training structure. It's probably my failing but in the main I just kind of live with my dogs and hang out. Yes we do quite a lot of training but there's plenty of just stuff that happens and I find it almost impossible to approach that in a purely positive way 100% of the time. I think I'm heading for about 97/98% ;)
     

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