After the disastrous trip to the vet I decided I needed to make a more concerted effort with Scott and Scout's nervous aggression. They have improved a lot but we do seem to have come to a halt with progress. They now only panic and bark if a person they aren't comfortable with comes very near or attempts or looks like they might,touch them. They don't bother at all if people keep moving even if passing close or if they stay at a reasonable distance. I've re read BAT by Grisha Stewart. She advises you use set ups as the easiest way to train. Unfortunately it's never been practical for me so I've used her training advice for ' BAT on everyday walks'. She splits this into three stages. I've always used stage one. When the dogs see the trigger click then move away which is the functional reward,what the dog wants and what it gets by barking, then use treats as a bonus especially if you can't get completely out of the way. Doing this we have achieved the improvement we have. I think we now need to use stage two because we now only have an issue close up. In stage two rather than moving away as soon as the trigger is spotted you keep moving towards the trigger and wait for a replacement behaviour the dog does before it goes over the edge into panic. For example looking away from the trigger. You then reward that by moving away then a food treat as a bonus. This is proving difficult for two reasons. First I haven't found a replacement behaviour yet. ??? I was wondering if I could train a replacement behaviour like 'look at me' ? Although I think the point of BAT is the dog teaches itself using the environmental/natural conditions. Secondly the situations were people come up close don't happen that often. : There are people I sometimes meet walking who I'm sure if I asked would come over to us as if going to touch the dogs but I wonder if the lack of regular exposure and therefore the lack of regular BAT training opportunity will mean its not possible to train? I know there aren't many of you that use or need BAT but any suggestions would be great. I feel a bit stuck. :-\
Re: BAT tips So wish I could help really hope someone can as you've done such great work so far and am looking forward to your progress and success
Re: BAT tips Hi jen , I guess the problem with stage two is that if you arent on the ball , your dog will tip over into panic ? Do you ever walk the dogs with other people ? Just wondering if walking with someone with a calm dog might help a bit as I am sure that dogs pick up on the messages other dogs give out ? Sorry if you have already tried this x
Re: BAT tips Thank you Barbara . We might get some progress to report but success hmmmm We walk three or four times a week with two rottweillers Kate. For rottweillers they are very docile. It's quite funny really people will keep away from the rotties but think 'lets stroke the young labs'. WRONG they would be safer stroking the rotties. : It hasn't really helped Scott and scouts fear of strangers walking with the rotties. If somebody stops and strokes the rottweillers my two bark!!!!!! :-\ . I've tried to explain Itsy and Bitsy are more than capable of looking after themselves but it falls on deaf ears.
Re: BAT tips I don't know if it helps, but I have taught Harley to 'look at me' when I can see something that will distract her from our training. This has stopped her running off or yanking me with her and also allowed for dogs/exciting people to walk past without being mobbed. I get her to sit, look at me, wait, then reward after a short time. Good luck x
Re: BAT tips It might not be very practical nor always possible but I would take them out separately including vet visits. It will give you a much better idea if they are both reactive or if one just gets wound up because the other one is. It is also a lot easier to concentrate on just one dog at a time and watch for those very small behaviours you can mark and reward.
Re: BAT tips [quote author=heidrun link=topic=4934.msg61671#msg61671 date=1395148422] It might not be very practical nor always possible but I would take them out separately including vet visits. It will give you a much better idea if they are both reactive or if one just gets wound up because the other one is. It is also a lot easier to concentrate on just one dog at a time and watch for those very small behaviours you can mark and reward. [/quote] A lady near us has a rescue Viszla and a rescue Pointer X. I think I've posted about them before. She's definitely found one to be more reactive than the other but they back each other up/wind each other up when something comes along that triggers a response. They've all come a long, long way and I can now stand and have a chat with her while the three dogs wait patiently. (I hope that gives you some hope if nothing else )
Re: BAT tips Got all excited because I thought you might be making tips on how to build / where to site a bat house… Think I may be on the wrong forum…
Re: BAT tips Hi Jen, the big problem with the close up stuff is, as Kate says, its soooo easy for things to tip over, the dogs bark, you charge away from the trigger, they got what they wanted by barking, and on it goes. This was a difficult stage with Cuilli, and still is sometimes. The thing that has really worked for me, but only in certain situations (and will be more difficult in your situation) is the minute I see cuilli starting to get a bit ansty, I do the 'look at me Cuilli' thing (high happy voice of course), and in her case she gets her ball thrown. So, she only gets a bit ansty, not really reacting, but approaching it, but you have time to pull her out of that state, then something amazing happens (her ball gets thrown). Now this isn't the dog using its environment as such, but its using the environment she knows I can create for her, if you know what I mean. What I've found is that with my repeated use of this, the second I say look at me know, she expects a lovely ball throw. However, my situation is different to yours, and we tend to come across folk up the hill off lead so flinging a ball is easy, not so easy for you.... the other thing I've found works with Cuillin, which is the hardest, is to take a leap of faith that she won't react in your own head. Sometimes I feel that my worry over 'will she react or wont she' actually makes her react. I'm utterly convinced that she feels 'tension down the lead', in fact she feels tension in the air as she is always a lot more reactive if I have a friend with me, who gets a wee bit stressed about Cuillin barking. That's been difficult too, the behaviourist I spoke to was absolutely spot on when she said that the main reason for going to reactive dog groups was to be able to speak to other owners of reactive dogs, it can be very stressful managing a reactive dog, and I really do know how you feel, and that is maybe the hardest bit to manage, the sort of state of mind we are in ourselves..... One question - do you take the dogs out on their own - ie just Scott, or just Scout? is either more likely to react that the other? Do they reinforce each others behaviour? sorry if you've already told me this....
Re: BAT tips Yarg sorry just saw Heidrun asked you my question....flipping screens between work data and the forum!
Re: BAT tips Thank you all. Sorry Karen we do have bats in the barn but I don't have any tips about them I'm afraid. In the main I walk them together and yes in a lot of circumstances they egg each other on but weirdly not so much with the nervous aggression. They probably do but for example a lady who lives on our walking route I've known all my life, Scott will bark if she comes too near scout won't bother. We can be chatting, she might move a little bit which will set Scott off and Scout will lie down. This happened last week ! On the other hand Scott will happily go to our neighbour to be stroked, although under his terms, while at the same time Scout will bark. Yesterday we stopped to chat to our other neighbour who was close enough to touch them neither batted an eyelid even when her jack russell came over right up to them sniffing them. When I have taken them on their own their reactivity is very similar although Scott is probably more vocal more quickly. I can tell when they are nearing their state of panic if we've managed to stop with somebody calmly but the dogs start to think they are getting a bit too close. This doesn't help though in situations where somebody is just crossing the road near us and they decide to bark!!! 'The leap of faith' thing is definitely difficult. Sometimes I think they will definitely react and they don't and then other times they will react and I'm not sure why. Thankfully the times they react are reducing its just getting over the next hurdle that's proving difficult.
Re: BAT tips Debsie hit the nail on the head, it's our state of mind ourselves that contributes to dogs reactions. Charlie can be reactive with a few male dogs in our village, Woody for instance, they always bark at each other nothing more but its annoying, but this morning neither Mark Woody's owner or David noticed each other so they were relaxed so NO barking just lovely calm walking past each other. When we went to meet Annette, a large labrador approached bouncing into Charlie's face, David tensed the lead and Charlie reacted, but to be fare the owner could see we were training and should have put his dog on lead, and he knows Annette, so his fault. But I think if David had left Charlie on the long line and not tensed all would have been fine. We are trying very hard to change our body language and behaviour to not send any negative vibes to Charlie, so hopefully he will learn and be less reactive. xxx
Re: BAT tips Your right Helen. When I get in a situation I think they are going to react in I wrap their leads at least once around my hand to get them nearer me. That's got to be a big give away to them that they should be ready to react to something. I need to stop doing that really but I can appreciate how off putting it must be for people to have two black dogs barking at them. To be fair most people don't seem to mind and are sympathetic when I explain it's basically fear. Usually when we meet/pass people with or without a dog I usually put my two either side of me so I'm more balanced if they should pull. Last week I accidentally had them both on my left with me between them and the trigger. They did seem much calmer and not as interested so I've been doing that since quite successfully. I guess it's just a very fine balancing act were they can tip one way or the other. ???
Re: BAT tips Can't help whatsoever :. Just wanted to say, Jen and Debsie, that it's all super interesting and you both sound to be doing a great job with a difficult problem. Have very much enjoyed reading about this and hope you post more about BAT.
Re: BAT tips Jen, maybe you should just walk past people and C&T for a non reaction/bark, I am sure your neighbours will understand. Then when you have that under control just build up the stopping to chat very slowly. I am sure you have done all this but just a thought . I don't ever feel I have to stop when I walk Charlie if I feel he could become anxious or fearful I just say "hello" and walk on treating and praising him. xx
Re: BAT tips They are usually fine if we keep walking and hardly react at all. It's being too close and the chance of touching that sets them off. In a normal day we have got to a point were it's not too much of a problem. It was the trip to the vet that has started me worrying. It occurred to me that when they really need to be examined and need something done they will have to be knocked out for him to touch them !!!!!! :-\ Im sure the vet wouldn't mind if I took them every now and then to try and get them calmer there but I think its a problem that needs more than just that which is why I'm trying to work on it in all situations. Unfortunately at the moment with not much success.
Re: BAT tips Hi jen, shortening the lead reduces the dogs options and can make reactions worse...if you draw them nearer to you and sort of rein them in, they don't have movement away (flight) as an option in their heads. so next best thing is bark to make the trigger go away. I switched cuillin to a longer lead and makes a big difference for her. another thing we stopped doing was head on approaches. dogs are more comfortable with angled approaches, head on can seem quite confrontational. Helens suggestion is good- why dont you keep moving towards the trigger, but do parallel approaching, so moving towards but not directly at, if you know what i mean? of couse all easier said than done without Set Ups!
Re: BAT tips Totally agree with Debsie about tightening the lead as it can create 'fight or flight', we have Charlie on a 10 meter line that has a 'D' ring at 5 meters therefore we have him a little closer for various situations when walking, meeting/greeting. I think this has really helped as proven today with Woody Although he is of course on a normal lead for pavement walking, but nothing is a substitute for a loose lead for calm walking which is sometimes easier said than done. You can buy the Police training leads that have multiple 'D' rings at different lengths to suit different situations, maybe that would be an option Jen? ???
Re: BAT tips Thank you both. Will put those ideas into practise if possible today. Like you've both said I'm sure I exacerbate the situation. First thing this morning we met a little border terrier monty. They sometimes react to monty but have been a lot better recently. I had them both on my left so as far away as possible and I kept leads loose. They were fine hardly reacted at all just had a bit of a glance at him. Just need to meet some more today to keep practising. It's a double edged sword really. I don't want to meet people incase they react but we need to to try and overcome the problem :
Re: BAT tips Great stuff Had some ideas about the Vet...you'll know yourself that the dogs can go very quickly from 2/10 stress to 10/10, and the trick is to not let them get anywhere near there before approaching the trigger (the vet!). So how about a tippy toe baby steps BAT session around the vet as a single trigger...sorry if you've already tried but if not how about: drive to vets (f you do, or walk), get to car park, have a super yummy treat in car, and go home (any stress in car, stop further back) repeat till super happy to go to car park in car drive to vets, get out of car super yummy treat, and home any stress, don't get out of car, repeat till fine in car next trip, get out of car, and oh wow the receptionists are here with super treats. any stress and home. if not Great! treats and fuss and home the next trip, the vet is there too with a treat - this might be where the steps have to start again! ie just happen to see the vet in the car park, and then leave then depending on how they are, just get them happily trotting into the vets, then sitting in reception, then vet comes to see them, etc etc. I reckon the vets folk will be fine with this, must happen a lot. and once you conquer the Scary Vet, might give them a bit more confidence anyway, if you know what I mean... if its any comfort I spent around 6 months sitting up the side of the hill with Cuillin just looking at dogs in the distance last year. Just as well Brodick is the most chilled dog in the world (except around pheasants and boomer balls) he used to just go to sleep in the sun
