Objective opinion needed - would you adopt one of these puppies?

Discussion in 'Labrador breeding & genetics' started by Emily_BabbelHund, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. MF

    MF Registered Users

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    933
    Location:
    Cape Town, South Africa
    That has crossed my mind! I have wanted to call the new owner to find out, out of curiosity.

    The worst part of my story is that the owner of the sire is one of the most well-known judges in the country. And yet she put out a sire whose tests were misleading because she had him tested in the country from which he was imported and then provided those test results which are structured differently to those here, hence being misleading (long story, the owner of the boy with elbow dysplasia investigated -- she is a vet). And... after a couple of years of owning him, I heard she (the judge) sold him to someone else, so... clearly she decided he was not actually as good as she proclaimed when I called her when I was searching for a puppy.

    Getting a registered dog (with the Kennel Union) apparently doesn't mean much here -- the Kennel Union does not exclude a dog with health issues from being registered; it uses other criteria such as: the parents were previously registered. I need to reread the criteria (it has been a while), but to a novice such as myself, I assumed it meant certain health guarantees. But apparently it does not.
     
    bbrown likes this.
  2. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,993
    Location:
    Andorra and Spain
    It is, it takes into account any data from parents, siblings and progeny in relation to their hip and elbow testing to give you scores like this (for Hawksmoors Webster) :

    Screen Shot 2016-09-15 at 10.54.51.png

    You can interrogate the data in the KC database to see (at a high level) how these results are arrived at - HW has no data for parents or siblings, but loads from his puppies. Most of them are under the breed average for hips (although there are a few terrifying ones in there, like a 38 and a 57!!) and similarly for elbows - most are zero, but with a couple of 1s and 2s. The higher the percentage of bad scores in the tested kin, the farther to the left the dot goes.
    If there is no data, or if all tests come out at breed standard for the kin, then the dots are in the middle.

    It's a pretty useful tool, in that is goes beyond just the health tests of the dog. A dog can have zero hips and elbows but still end up massively in the red if a large percentage of his pups have problems.
     
    SwampDonkey and MF like this.
  3. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Thanks - though I'm not adverse to looking in the UK either, mainly because of the language barrier in Germany. My German is passable and works quite well when I do in-person visits, but it is very difficult for me to get a good read on the phone.

    My first step is to better understand the LCD/DRC criteria for being an accredited breeder. It seems they do control health checks but not any other criteria (whether the dog is "finished" as we say in the US or has a field or other working title, for example). It is more lax than the other breeds I considered, that's for sure.

    I also need to study all the seemingly endless health acronyms and ratings. The one pair I did look at (and really love their temperaments), "dad" was A1 on hips and "mama" was C1. I asked the breeder about C1 and she said that was still really good...but, um.. "C1" doesn't SOUND all that good.

    I feel this is going to be a battle to get educated and make my way through all the German dog lingo. Not to mention that the LCD breeder list is enormous...I just don't know how to start. :(
     
  4. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    I'm glad you got Snowy and his poo-loving personality though the health issues must be scary for both of you. But I hear you.. you can do everything completely "right" and sometimes nature still takes a turn. I definitely need to meet at least the dam and preferably both dam and sire, but to be honest I don't know if I would really know what to look for health-wise. I know what I want temperament-wise but health...not so much. I'd also feel better if I could meet/find out about previous litters, but I suspect this would be difficult info to get except for any puppies that the breeder kept.

    I re-visited the breeder in Situation #1 above at the beginning of the post and again really liked her dogs. And was again worried by her many, many litters. For example, I learned if I'm not ready for the litter ready to come home in November, she has other litters ready in January, March, April and June. All except one of the litters will have her new male, currently 1.5 years old, as sire. I absolutely loved him, but is that too young? I found out he came to Germany in a van from Croatia with multiple other puppies... does that make his records kind of suspect? The mama dog I liked the best is having her fifth litter and she is five years old. Isn't that a LOT? I was more impressed on this visit on how much this breeder clearly loves her dogs, they are well taken care of, etc. but...but, but... "but" is the word of the day here!

    Ah well, I'm currently on holiday so I'm telling myself that somehow I will come up with a brilliant puppy search strategy once I'm back from holiday on the 26th. I really hope some brilliance wonks me on the head between now and then!
     
    MF likes this.
  5. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2011
    Messages:
    11,167
    In my opinion five litters is definitely too many for a bitch and I'm not a fan of very young stud dogs as while he's old enough to have his health checks in place I'm not sure you really know what you've got in terms of longer term health and (for me) working ability. Someone more experienced may be more confident in judging a young dogs working ability though :)
     
    SwampDonkey and MF like this.
  6. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Yes, I agree with you. It's my heart over my head as taking a pup from this breeder would be easy...and I did love the sweet personalities of the sire and actually all of her females. But I know I need to do due diligence and put in a proper search.

    But as I said above, must put together some sort of plan for doing that proper breeder search. Which will almost certainly involve asking lots of questions here!
     
  7. heidrun

    heidrun Moderator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,821
    That is definitely too many litters for a five year old bitch. She must be having them on the bounce, a mating every time she comes into season, rather than skipping a season or two. 4 litters is the maximum here in the UK that the KC will register from a bitch.
     
    bbrown likes this.
  8. zrinka

    zrinka Registered Users

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    Croatia
    Do you know the name of the kennel he came from?
     
  9. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Capronca - their dogs look beautiful but I've not yet done any other research into them. Do you know them?
     
  10. zrinka

    zrinka Registered Users

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    Croatia
    Yes, they are one of the best kennels we have around here, beside Navigo (does not have a chocolate labradors). A friend of mine has a chocolate two year old girl from Capronca. She has lovely personality, and her guardian will probably go for the breeding license. As much she told me, they are very professional and really love their dogs. With the help of the owner of the kennel she chosen Judita, as one of the puppies with calmer personality.
     
    Emily_BabbelHund likes this.
  11. Karen

    Karen Moderator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    10,375
    C1 is not great for hips - I wouldn't go for any pups where both parents had less than A2.
     
    Emily_BabbelHund and bbrown like this.
  12. Karen

    Karen Moderator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    10,375
    Also, am certain the breeder you are looking at is not LCD/DRC accredited. They only allow a maximum of two litters per year per kennel, and no more than one litter per bitch per year, with an absolute max of four litters for a bitch. If you pm me the name, I'll see if I can find anything out for you.
     
    bbrown likes this.
  13. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Thank you! He is a truly lovely dog, nice to know he comes from a good kennel as well. By the way, I did not mean to imply that because he comes from Croatia makes him suspect, it was more the "van drive across the border with other pups" story as Croatia isn't really that far of a drive from Germany. If he were mine I would have driven down myself to pick him up. But granted I zip around Europe quite a bit - and I also don't have 10 dogs at home which need caring for while I'm out and about.
     
  14. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Thanks, Karen. That makes sense. As I said, now that I've 95% decided that my next pup will be Lab (this summer was about choosing a breed, not a particular breeder) I now need to educate myself on all the specific health clearances and such before making any big decisions on a breeder. Though it would be nice if this breeder's dogs fit the bill as their temperaments seem so good and she is only three hours away from my home in Germany.
     
  15. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Supporting Member Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    828
    Location:
    Regensburg, Germany (Bavaria/BY)
    Hi Karen, I replied to you privately, but just wanted to put this out there as a correction of sorts -

    I went back to the breeder's website and checked her litter record and it looks like the mama dog I'm looking at (they were all lovely, but this one was my favourite) has been bred only TWICE not four times prior as I stated earlier. I really thought that when I asked the breeder in person she said the female was five years old and this would be her fifth litter, but my German comprehension can be dodgy so it is likely I misunderstood. So my apologies for giving potentially false info here.

    I do not want to bash anyone, just trying to get educated on the ins and outs of searching for a breeder. I can't say enough how nice this breeder was to me during both our visits, dogs happy, healthy and well-loved.
     
  16. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,993
    Location:
    Andorra and Spain
    Karen is definitely the one to help you with the specifics of the health tests in Germany, so I'd be taking her up on that offer :)
     
  17. snowbunny

    snowbunny Administrator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    10,993
    Location:
    Andorra and Spain
    Out of interest, here is some information about restrictions that the UK Kennel Club has on their website http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/reg...pedigree-dog-litter/litter-registration-faqs/


    Are there any restrictions that would prevent me from registering my pedigree puppies?
    Yes, if any of the following apply:

    • The dam has already whelped 4 litters (as of the 1st January 2012 the limit changed from 6 litters to 4 litters). As of this date the Kennel Club will no longer register any further litters from any bitch which our records show has already whelped 4 litters. Therefore for any litter born on or after the 1st January 2012, the system will automatically check to see how many previous litters the Kennel Club has an account of. Where the number previously recorded is 4 or more, the application will be rejected, or
    • The dam has already reached the age of 8 years at the date of whelping, (relief from this restriction may be considered normally provided an application is made prior to the mating, the proposed dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter, and the application is supported by veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping), or
    • The dam was under one year old at the time of mating, or
    • The offspring are the result of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons, or
    • The dam has already had two litters delivered by caesarean section, save for scientifically proven welfare reasons and this only normally provided the application is made prior to the mating, or
    • The dam was not resident at a UK address at the date of whelping.
    • If either the dam or sire are endorsed with progeny not eligible for registration (i.e. that there is a restriction on file at the Kennel Club that prevents any puppies from being registered). Please refer to your owner certificate if you are unsure, the endorsement will be clearly displayed.

    and

    From the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999:

    Licensed breeders must:

    • Not mate a bitch less than 12 months old.
    • Not whelp more than six litters from a bitch (for litters born in 2012, the limit will be restricted to four litters).
    • Not whelp two litters within a 12 month period from the same bitch.
    • Keep accurate records.
    • Not sell a puppy until it is at least eight weeks of age, other than to a keeper of a licensed pet shop or Scottish rearing establishment.
     
    Emily_BabbelHund likes this.

Share This Page