Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

Discussion in 'Labrador Behavior' started by Beanwood, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. A.Causer

    A.Causer Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    I was not saying don't read it and discuss it, I was just saying take everything with a pinch of salt. 55 people in a facebook group will not change the world. I have no idea of peoples backgrounds but I see people every day who have googled things and have been misled. I really worry about how personally people take my comments (which is never intended), I am just talking from my experience. I take advice on training/behaviour from all the more experienced owners than me but feel I have good stuff to offer from a veterinary point of view so offer my thoughts and knowledge.

    The main study re neutering is from a referral hospital in California. 1 by nature of cases studied, they are all sick or injured - no healthy controls 2. in the USA neuter percentage is very high - low proportion of entire controls 3. some of the conditions talked about have genetic factors which have not been accounted for 4. some of the conditions are influenced by weight gain, which neutering can affect but equally can be avoided so is not necessarily a direct consequence.

    Every vet is entitled to their own opinion. There are some outdated views in practice and peoples personal opinion or experience can interfere with their professional one. My point was simply, you cannot get testicular cancer without testicles, you cannot get a pyometra if your ovaries +/- womb have been removed. Mammary cancer risk I think is less than 1% if spayed pre first season and rises considerably with every season, if memory serves me correctly its 12% after 2 seasons. Its all about balance, if you buy a hip scored dog, manage its weight and exercise, neutering in unlikely to cause hip dysplasia. If however your dog is not from hip scored parents and then you neuter it maybe risk is increased. Equally, castration is unlikely to cause the death of a pet but being hit by a car in pursuit of a female might well do. A spayed bitch might develop cruciate disease, but an unspayed one may die of pyometra. I appreciate these are extremes. But I have said its on a case by case basis. I'm not asking for respect for my opinion, I am merely stating it as an addition to this interesting debate on castration.

    I was just curious to know what Kate's motivations for Benson to remain entire were, as in the result of an inconclusive or borderline result to the tardak trial there will be interesting decisions to make.

    Thanks Stacia, indeed there is nothing pleasant about the anaesthetic risk of a bitch with pyometra when she never needed to be in that position.
     
  2. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Alex, please post links to the studies you mention - or full references - so people can look at the studies you quote. But the fact remains that not all vets are in agreement with your view.

    Well, we are talking about male dogs, not bitches.

    My own view is that castrating may cause, not solve, behaviour problems - obviously not in all dogs, of course there are loads of castrated male dogs that are model citizens. But I see so very many reactive, nervous, castrated dogs that it gives me serious pause for thought - and I think Kate is extremely sensible in trying to see how castration might effect Benson before she make her decision.

    My own intact dog is as gentle as they come, lovely and confident (although a tad wary of castrated males that he has learned to avoid). He does not run off after bitches. He doesn't mark in the house. None of my training problems - by any stretch of the imagination - could be attributed to him being intact.

    My vet says the health pros and cons are finely balanced, and he won’t call it either way. So why on earth would I castrate my dog?

    So I'd say Kate is the sensible one here....sure, she might decide after all this that Benson is best off castrated. But she'll have done the best by her dog by doing what she can to be sure before she makes that decision.
     
  3. A.Causer

    A.Causer Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    I have said Kate is sensible several times. I'm just interested in what factors influence how the final decision will be made if it's not clear cut.

    I have said if people have no issues then great, but that's not to say issues will not arise.

    I have said it should beon a case by case basis, not a blanket neutering protocol at 6 months.

    I have said some issues will only be seen later in life ie. tumours and prostate issues. Some people say, I'll cross the castration issue if problems in that area arise, but then its probably too late because the cancer would have spread. Some currently perfectly healthy, adult male, entire dogs will go on to have issues - FACT. There's a reason such a high proportion of men have prostate hyperpalsia or prostate cancer later in life prolonged exposure to testosterone (and environmental/genetic factors), my dad did not take too kindly to me suggesting preventative castration however!! Female hormone treatments are part of effective therapy.

    I have mentioned the difficulties/special case of nervous dogs, which are the minority from my experience.

    The studies I read up to 12 months ago, but I will try to dig them out for you later this week as they are all referenced in my notes at home. But a key thing to remember also is that dogs studied are dogs that vets see, there are definitely some pets that never see a vet so we have no idea how their life pans out, the majority of these probably never got neutered either.

    Yes vets are human and opinions do differ on some things. It's great you trust your vet, but equally my clients trust me.

    There are also ethical considerations, with rescue charities/shelters/rspca full to bursting we need to curb irresponsible breeding. The general public often do not train or supervise their dogs well enough and there are plenty of misalliances and accidental pregnancies. Dogs being given away on gumtree for free, sold for £50 in a pub, used as bait, abused and even killed by people for fun. SO whilst that is not pertinent to your well trained, docile dog it is a very very important reason to neuter dogs (and cats).
     
  4. Mollly

    Mollly Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    This is not meant to be flippant.

    By leaving a male dog intact, are you sentencing them to a life of sexual frustration?
     
  5. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Interesting question, Mollly. I'd say some get frustrated but some don't care.

    A.Causer's last post pretty much sums up the prevailing view here in Oz, especially the issues with unwanted dogs, abused dogs etc. Basically, there are too many dogs, and too many people treating them as disposable, and that's why there has been such a strong push from vets and governments here to have desexing considered the norm - for population control reasons.
     
  6. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    I'm most definitely not anti-neuter but I think it's important to look at each case on its merits.

    From a purely medical perspective I think for boys it's a finely balanced argument. For girls pyo makes it much more obvious to spay at some point. I don't think there's enough proper research on the impact of early neutering and I look forward to the study from Guide Dogs.

    When you take social factors into account and in here I am lumping behaviour, tendency to wander/leg it after girls as well as the impact of unwanted litters obviously there's a strong case for neutering. I can totally understand the position of government, shelters and vets in wanting to reduce the unwanted and poorly bred dog population.

    The internet is doubtless a double edged sword, the group I mentioned seem, in the main, sensible intelligent people who genuinely want to understand the pros and cons of neutering and are against it being routine regardless of situation not against it completely. Up to you if you take a look at the resources held there.
     
  7. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    And by the way I think this log is a fascinating insight into one case as well as a springboard for some interesting discussion so thank you Kate :D
     
  8. snowbunny

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Interesting conversation and the log is great, so thanks for that, Kate.

    I did have a bit of a giggle reading through and thinking what if we were talking about our boyfriends/husbands instead of our dogs?
     
  9. Lisa

    Lisa Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    I find it fascinating to see the differences between countries on this issue. Here in Canada the policy is to spay/neuter before the dog is a year old, for the same reasons as Rachael said - to curb the population and prevent the shelters filling up with unwanted puppies, etc. Behaviour reasons (in the case of dogs) are mentioned as a secondary reason. I have had all three of my dogs neutered, the two I raised as pups at around 6 months and Simba at 10 months, when we "inherited" him. I have absolutely no regrets about it. I did not even know there were whole schools of thought out there about NOT neutering until I joined this forum, to tell you the truth. But even if I had, I would still have neutered Simba simply because when we got him he had absolutely no self-control and zero recall, plus was aggressive towards us in various situations. For his safety and ours neutering was a no-brainer in my opinion. I realize that others have a different opinion and if people wan to keep their dogs entire of course that is up to them. We are all doing what we think is best for our dogs AND for us, in terms of what we can reasonably cope with in managing a dog's lifestyle and behaviour if he/she is not neutered. The thing to avoid, which I think we do avoid on this forum, is to insinuate that those who have made the opposite choice to us (for reasons that are equally as valid to them as ours are to us) have somehow got it "wrong" and are doing a disservice to our pets. I really appreciate A.Causer's opinion and the knowledge he brings to this issue, as well as the opinions and knowledge of those who have made either choice. It's an interesting discussion, and I'm really glad Kate is sharing with us her experiences with Benson, to help others who might be considering the same thing.
     
  10. kateincornwall

    kateincornwall Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Well said Lisa x
     
  11. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    I agree Lisa. It's good to hear different opinions. I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer to the question to neuter or not. It's a very interesting thread.
     
  12. Beanwood

    Beanwood Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Update: we are at week 3, and in terms of behaviour, this hasn't changed really from day 9, when everything seemed to settle down, from a) Every bitch in season seemed to be heading towards Benson b) The time to optimal clinical effectiveness post injection which is around 8 days.

    At this point, I can't be absolutely Tardak is effective, as I don't know whether we have encountered an in season bitch. within the last 2 weeks. Certainly we haven't experienced ANY of those obvious responses to a bitch in season which were so difficult to manage. Nor has his personality changed ie he has not become fearful, less or more confident, nor has other dogs interactions with Benson altered at all. So anecdotally, it hasn't appeared to have had a negative effect on Benson.
    So the plan: We know that we have a couple of friends, who have dogs due to come into season any time, which will be a good test, so we are thinking of another injection of Tardak...this will give us more time and opportunity to assess over a period in total of around 8 weeks before wearing off.

    In the meantime, we are upping his training, which we have been doing this over the last 2 weeks, to good effect, the aim is really proofing recall and also working on off lead close work, and also training not to run to other dogs unless released. We have also been mixing this up with dummy work, sit stays, really focussing on Benson getting more engaged with us, to the point he gets so excited when we walk over our fields as he knows he is getting a dummy thrown, or he will asked to go and find one! :) :)

    Going back to the original motive.

    Benson had never had any behavioural issues. Never ran off, well OK apart from the normal puppy behaviour! :) :) Training was going smoothly, as expected with the odd blip. Then we had a couple of incidents. close together quite recently, with bitches in season being walked in very public areas, and off lead... one being Blaise Castle, the other a local common, all within a week, this caused chaos! Benson just ran off, sniffed the air a few times... then off! That got us revisiting whether we ought to consider castration. For us we were undecided. Benson is slow to mature, both physically and mentally. He is big show line labrador, and only in the last month or so has been filling out. He also is quite a shy dog, at times lacking in confidence, although very well socialised and happy with dogs he knows. The other factor was, OK if we castrated Benson, how would this affect his behaviour? Do we simply need to train more? We know we have a challenging lab, he is hard work, not as biddable or focussed as some labs, but wouldn't have him any other way! :*

    So in summary,we want to wait a bit longer to find out if we really need too. If we decide to neuter we want to leave it a bit longer so Benson can mature a bit more, but not have him develop in the meantime any learned behaviours such as running off, roaming etc..which may/may not be influenced by being entire. We don't live in a densely populated area, we are on a farm with a large private acreage and the nearest dog is a mile away, so from that perspective we can manage likely exposure to in season bitches, he shouldn't be bumping into them every 5 minutes!

    Finally we have discussed this at length with our vet, and also our dog trainer, who both think this is a good route for us to take with Benson. All dogs are different, and we are neither for or against neutering, although I believe through reading the clinical evidence that there certainly is a case for allowing larger male dogs a bit longer to develop before neutering.
     
  13. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Sounds sensible to me :)

    It's great that this drug is available to give you time to experiment and think before making a decision.

    It is interesting that you don't report that Benson has become any more shy or lacking in confidence on the Tardak....so I wonder if castration might not actually have a negative affect there either?
     
  14. A.Causer

    A.Causer Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    All sounds like a good plan. Testing with the in season bitches will hopefully give more answers. Although one thing I would have possibly done was leave training the same as normal just because you won't be certain whether training or Tardak has been the more effective tool? I'm a change one thing at a time kind of a person with clients and with Amber. But then equally you can never do too much training really - although I'm certainly in no danger or doing too much ;-) haha.
     
  15. Lisa

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Sounds like a good plan. Thanks for the update! :)
     
  16. Dexter

    Dexter Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Sounds like it's gone really well Kate.its been so good of you to post your experiences,I for one had not even heard of this drug until you brought it to the Forum ,it's a good reference for others considering it x
     
  17. Beanwood

    Beanwood Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak and Suprelorin- temporary chemical castration log..

    Quote from the NOAH compendium...

    "Animals showing a favourable response can be expected to require follow-up treatment after a three to four week period. Further treatment in 'social indications' is recommended at the first sign of reappearance of the effectively controlled indication."

    I can safely say we left his second injection a tinsy bit too late.(due tomorrow.).and I now have one arm a fair bit longer than the other... ::) ::)
    I have no idea how on earth we are going to manage at agility tonight...
     
  18. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    Good luck! Hold the lead in your other hand and your arms should even out ;)

    Seriously, hope it goes well and there are no enticing ladies!
     
  19. Beanwood

    Beanwood Registered Users

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    We cancelled the second Tardak injection, as we feel we have a good before and after picture with Benson. That was the primary objective for us so we don't need a further course of Tardak (short acting last 3 -4 weeks on average)

    We have been seeing over the last few days, evidence of a more intense behaviour from Benson, which we are now certain is linked to a sexualised drive. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor does it indicate any frustration/behaviour issues, it is purely an observation of an entire Benson in interactions with other entire/and or castrated dogs versus the same dog at young pup/adolescent/with/without Tardak. I appreciate this is also trial of n=1 :), so what we have found won't necessarily being reflected with other dogs. The comparison is also with known dogs to Benson.

    The other interesting aspect to this is that we have in tandem upped the training, focussing on self control, staying close (using check ins..) recall and meet and greet through our own personal training with Benson coupled with adolescent classes which are on-going.
     
  20. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log..

    What are your plans now that you have this info? I'm glad that the trial has been very helpful.
     

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