So harry is 15 Months old and when we put our oven on he gets so scared bless him, he shakes so much and his tail is tucked!! I comfort him the best I can but I feel so useless when he is like this!! We let him out in the garden when dinner is being cooked but even then he cowls down at the end of the garden!! Really don't know what to do!!
Re: Very scared lab I'm no expert but you might want to look up the BAT threads on the forum. I'm on my phone so can post links later if someone doesn't beat me to it. I think it stands for behaviour adjustment therapy. Also you may want to try and find a qualified behaviourist to help you, your vet may be able to recommend a local one. Wishing you and you poor boy lots of luck
Re: Very scared lab Don't comfort him as that re-inforces his fears. Act totally unconcerned. You could start feeding him from a long distance away from the oven (put it on), the far side of the living room where he doesn't react to the oven and very, very gradually bring it closer over weeks. Totally ignore him when he is eating.
Re: Very scared lab [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8909.msg126710#msg126710 date=1416995165] Don't comfort him as that re-inforces his fears. [/quote] I thought that had been disproven and that comforting was a good thing?
Re: Very scared lab Yes, I do remember that you are right, but I still think to comfort does re-inforce a fear. I would never force a dog to confront his/her fears, take it very gently. My GSP who never feared gunshot, was terrified of fireworks, she used to leap on my knee and shake, so she did seek comfort from me, but she never got any better! My other, rescued GSP was terrified of gunshot and by ignoring it and singing happy songs when it was going off at a nearby shoot, he got that he wasn't worried at all.
Re: Very scared lab I agree with Stacia in this case. If you comfort poor Harry when he is afraid of the oven, you are reinforcing his irrational fears. Unless something happened that you can pinpoint, that frightened him about the oven?
Re: Very scared lab Oh poor boy, do you think maybe he got a burn from the oven at some point? I do agree that it would be well worth getting a session with a trainer who specifically deals with things like this to observe your dog directly and giving you some tips. It's a tricky one, because you can't really have the oven "on a bit" to introduce him to it gradually at a distance - it's either off or on. [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=8909.msg126711#msg126711 date=1416995229] [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8909.msg126710#msg126710 date=1416995165] Don't comfort him as that re-inforces his fears. [/quote] I thought that had been disproven and that comforting was a good thing? [/quote] There was an article from Patricia McConnell (discussed on the forum a while back) - she was arguing that it is not possible to reinforce fear. She said "That’s just wrong. Totally and completely and utterly wrong, but it has gathered gravitas, as things often do, because it has been repeated over and over again." She went on to argue (in a second article) that you could make things worse by appearing fearful yourself - but that's not the same as confidently comforting a dog. She used the example of a dog fearful of strangers getting treats when strangers appear, this doesn't make the dog more fearful of strangers, it makes the dog less fearful of strangers. But it's worth noting that she also thought that petting and comforting was unlikely to do much good, either.
Re: Very scared lab Interesting stuff, although I'm not sure I understand what that actually means in the real world! I think Stacia gave good advice, anyway, about desensitisation using food and distance. It may take a while and you may have to start him off the opposite side of the house, or outside with the door shut so he can only just hear the noise. Gradually bring him closer over time (days/weeks/whatever it takes). Of course, a suitable professional would hopefully be able to help come up with a plan of action, too.
Re: Very scared lab [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=8909.msg126724#msg126724 date=1416998786] Interesting stuff, although I'm not sure I understand what that actually means in the real world! [/quote] It means you can cuddle and comfort a scared dog without making its fear any worse. If you agree with Patricia McConnell, of course.
Re: Very scared lab I had an issue with Lady over 3 years ago now involving an extension lead for the garden mower. She bit through the wire and gave herself an almighty shock in the mouth. Understandably she was then absolutely terrified of black electrical leads. On the upside her chewing of wires in the house stopped, but on the downside she wouldn't go anywhere near the extension lead in the garden, or if I wasn't careful I'd find her marooned on one side of it and afraid to cross. Comfort wasn't going to work, so all I did was leave the lead lying about but not blocking her path and she gradually lost her fear over several months to the point she eventually jumped over it to get to me when I was taking her out for a walk. She had that silly grin plus waggy tail that said "Look at me! Aren't I brave!". ;D Comfort and cuddles definitely wouldn't work and in fact I think restraint by a cuddle would have made her very fearful as she wouldn't be able to escape from the evil garden snake! So I think just acting normally and just gradually re-introducing Harry in his own time is probably the only way, but it might take months.
Re: Very scared lab I think that's a tricky one, Julie. I sometimes see terrified dogs at the vets, shaking and trembling, with their owners cooing over them, petting them, cuddling them - I think it makes the situation worse in some cases. I am much more of an advocate of down-to-earth handling - walk in, sit down, give the dog a reassuring pat and tell her what a good dog she is, act as though there is nothing to be frightened of, you are in charge of the situation and the dog can rely on your experience and take your cue. If of course there is a reason for fear - for instance if Harry has burnt himself on one occasion - then a slow and careful reintroduction to the kitchen first with the oven off, then perhaps feeding him outside the kitchen with the oven on - might well be the way to go. She went on to argue (in a second article) that you could make things worse by appearing fearful yourself - but that's not the same as confidently comforting a dog. She used the example of a dog fearful of strangers getting treats when strangers appear, this doesn't make the dog more fearful of strangers, it makes the dog less fearful of strangers. I wouldn't call that comforting a dog exactly - I would call it teaching good associations with strangers, rather than bad. If the dog were afraid of strangers, and whenever a stranger appeared you picked the dog up and cooed over it, it would never learn that strangers are ok. Walking confidently past the unknown person, with a happy 'good dog' and a treat given at the appropriate moment isn't the same as comforting, to my mind. But probably I'm just splitting hairs - I think we basically agree that showing Harry that the oven is not a bad thing, is the way to go.
Re: Very scared lab The articles are here for those interested - the second article is a bit more nuanced: http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/th...ou-cant-reinforce-fear-dogs-and-thunderstorms http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/reinforcing-fear-ii-thunder-phobia-iii
Re: Very scared lab Thank you all for your input!! We think he may have burnt himself when he was a pup but wasn't sure if the smoke from the oven spooks him out!! We try to take him out while dinner is cooking but sometimes this can't always be possible!!
Re: Very scared lab I wonder whether it would be possible to start slowly with the oven after all. If you say he is still cowering in the garden, then using distance probably isn't that practical. So, the oven being on is (probably) a light, a sound, heat and you say smoke (or a smell). You could put a torch in the oven so it looks like it is on, but isn't. And try to get him used to that with lots of treats and positive associations - and so on.
Re: Very scared lab Yes, I like that idea. Then once he is happy with the torch, you could turn the fan on but not the heat... and so on.
Re: Very scared lab Torch is a good idea If he's within sight of the oven you could leave it off with a bag of treats taped to the door and just touch the oven and produce treats from it and toss them to him. Then start slowly making the oven more scary but still have it magically producing treats.
Re: Very scared lab How does he behave with the ovan off ? To use BAT in this situation it would be very similar to what Stacia suggested. You need to find a distance that your dog can cope with the ovan noise and reward him. Slowly move nearer. How does he behave in another room when the ovan is on or when the kitchen door is shut ? The aim of BAT is to find your dogs threshold. The point just before he gets scared and reward for being calm. Then gradually move nearer the trigger, in your case the ovan, so reducing the threshold. You want him to associate the ovan noise, smell whatever it is with something really good. How would he cope with just being the other side of the door with you, lots of very tasty treats, a toy for you to play with him to distract him ?
Re: Very scared lab Morgie1983 says the dog is not even ok outside the house at the bottom of the garden when the oven is on...
Re: Very scared lab In that case I'd try and find a place in the house where he will take a very tasty treat. A treat he would find irresistible. The garden would be the best place but not practical if raining etc. If you can find a place he will take food, whenever the ovan is on give him tasty treats in that spot until he is taking the treat without looking nervously for the ovan monster. Then move a little bit nearer the kitchen and repeat. The ovan is actually a very good trigger to use for set ups as you can do a few minutes throughout the day. The difficult bit is going to be finding his threshold but if you can find a place he will take food you can use that. If a dog will eat he hasn't got to the point of being too afraid to learn.
Re: Very scared lab I suggested feeding him his dinner as opposed to a treat as eventually he will need to eat and hunger may overtake fear. Though I hope his dinner is sufficiently far enough from the oven so that his fear is at its smallest level. Never overface a fearful animal. Trying to get the space off my post, not succeeding!
