I was told the other day that I shouldn't play ball with Dexter by throwing or using the chucker as it's bad for his joints and the rest of his body as it makes him twist if he over or under estimates where it lands. I do work on retrieving with Dexter and he loves it, his favourite game. We are working on steadying him but that's slow progress if I throw the ball but he's making great progress when I put him in a sit stay and go and place it before verbally releasing him. This is part of training sessions. When we are out and he's playing with another dog, both running for the ball and whoever gets it brings it back and they both wait for the next throw, is this a bad thing to do or fun? The dogs love it and there's no arguing between them. This is part of a play session. I was told tug would be a better game to teach him but until I can get a really secure release command I'm not sure about tug and Dexter prefers the ball. Leave it works in some situations but not in tug, so probably poisoned that cue
Hmm, gundog trainers don't much like tug, but I think as long as you have a release cue it is ok. And anything that involves too much jumping and twisting could potential cause joint problems - as a pup and later on in life (cruciates ). Just like stairs and puppies not a good idea. I think easy goes it, everything in moderation and keep things controlled, but I am sure other will chip in here too.
I think when my friend and I get together we can have some fun training sessions, we do this now but perhaps together we can devise a plan and have a more structured time. Like working on the dogs having more self control etc. I'm not a fan of tug but if I can play it with full control I might change my mind .
Repetitive fetches after a thrown ball, slamming on the brakes after the ball, and twisting to catch balls, are absolutely terrible for joints. It makes me wince every time I'm out that I see pet dogs fetching and fetching and fetching (let alone they also look over threshold, slightly mad, and obsessive). And don't get me started on frisbees....that awful twisting motion as dogs leap up on their back legs.....Yes, repetitive balls chucks are terrible for joints. And for any kind of sensible training. IMHO.
My Penny has had to have physiotherapy for joint problems and she recommended that we not play retrieving games where she is repeatedly running after a ball or other thrown item (frisbee etc) because the force on the joints and the twisting and turning from sudden stopping or acceleration would exacerbate her problems. However she also said that a marked retrieve where she is told to wait while the ball is thrown and then sent to get it once it has landed is much preferable as it places much less strain on her joints.
That settles it then as Dexter went from playing fetch quite calmly to possessed in a matter of days so I've stopped it and have carried on with placing the ball and only using it in short training sessions. Definitely going to work and work and work on his impulse control as will help in all areas of training. Thank you @drjs@5 and @JulieT.
Fetch is bad for elbows in particular - the sharp braking and deceleration as the dog slows down from a full run out. This can be almost completely avoided by having a steady dog retrieving blinds or memories hidden in long grass and the dog slows and then hunts for the retrieve.
Dexter loves it when he has to 'go find it'. We spent ages in the long grass the other day looking for the ball. I'd stood in front of Dexter and threw the ball behind me (I'm a rubbish thrower at the best of times), I knew it couldn't have gone far but I had no idea where it was. Well Dexter searched with his tail wagging but kept going around where it had landed before. I eventually saw it, by moving the grass with my foot, it was so tucked right into the long grass. I called Dexter nearer to where I was and sent him again to find it, he was very chuffed with himself
Tug is a great game. But, I do think playing tug resulted in Charlie chomping on things. It's no big deal - he will chomp up those cheap tennis balls that are stuck together with glue, and he'll chomp his run around toys (because I used to play tug with them - I've stopped this now and only use tug toys for tug), but he doesn't chomp dummies. It's a little inconvenient, because I have to buy more run around toys than I would if he didn't chomp them and embarrassing if he nicks a cheap tennis ball from another dog (I have proper tennis balls, that I carry with me to offer in exchange if he does this). But I've no reason to think it will transfer to other items that I don't play tug with. I think tug is really worth playing, and indeed there are techniques these days that use tug as part of training a retrieve, although I've never done this myself. I definitely want tug as part of my toolkit. Training a 'now tug and get all excited' and 'stop now, we are calm' for tug is an excellent impulse control exercise. And great fun, and a powerful reward. Lots of positive trainers say that they always use food - well, perhaps they are better trainers than I am, or have more time, or more biddable dogs....nothing beats playing with toys for Charlie, so I go with that and tug is important.
I have received the two tug toys today that I ordered, both the same and longer as all Dexter's other toys were too small to tug. How did you go about teaching the release cue? @JulieT. I thought I'd managed it but it hasn't transferred to tug . I probably moved on too quickly I am reading 'control unleashed' and have gone back to basics with the zen game and can throw food around, nearer to me at the moment, and Dexter will look at me before I C&T.
The first thing about tug is it is quite a gentle game at first - it is NOT dental work by tug. You should not be throwing your dog around with him holding on for dear life as you use all your strength to fling him around by the tug toy. So first, train 'take it' - this is really easy, just move the tug toy out of the way if he goes to grab it. So this starts off in a a quiet, gentle way. Then you move with the toy, all low key, and then when you want him to let it go you just stop, still. The toy goes 'dead' and boring. The dog should let it go (because it's now boring) and at that point say your end cue (mine is 'thank you' said in a quiet, boring way). That gives you the start of the end cue. Rinse and repeat in a low key, gentle way until you have your start and end cues. After that, you can build the excitement up, and make the tug more and more exciting and frantic but your quiet 'take it' and 'thank you' remain the same. If they stop working, calm the game down so they dog stays under control. I have built this up now so I can hold a tug toy out with Charlie at a distance, and say 'take it' and he will fly from stillness to grab that toy with great power (it's on a bungee cord!) and have a frantic game but as soon as I say 'thank you' he'll stop instantly and be calm. But at first, you play it gently in your kitchen until you have the cues established.
It's a dog. Play catch with the ball and ignore the person who told you you shouldn't do it. Unbelievable advice.
It's funny that you say that as I started our 'leave it' cue with tug so it's great with that but not so great in other situations. I was nervous about playing tug in the beginning as I was worried that Ella would start to try and tug with other items. I didn't properly play until I was sure that she'd let go as soon as I asked. Now she can be completely excited, mid-game and will instantly let go as soon as I ask. However, she seems to think that my hand must also be on the item in her mouth for her to let go so when she has picked up some other item (hopefully just a sock and nothing gross), she often won't leave it unless I have the other end of the item. She's getting better but it's a work in progress. Maybe I should have named her 'work in progress' rather than Ella
Any dog physiotherapist will say that repeated sudden decelaration and turning/twisting/leaping will have an impact on joints over time (including the spine). . If people want to have fun with their dog this way they can go ahead. But it's important to be a bit careful at least... It's not something I'd do every day with a dog - joints need recovery time. My first Lab stopped doing Flyball at about the age of 7. Flyball involves a lot of repeated stopping, turning and jumping. He used to run his fastest and slam into the box. I know that affected him as when he stopped Flyball he definitely loosened up and moved better because his body wasn't having such a hard time. These days a different type of turn is taught which avoids the sudden stops. Vigorous doggie activity is fun and people shouldn't rule it out. But just be sensible with the duration and frequency.
My dogs physiotherapist loves ball flingers they are great for business loads of dogs end up with problems they develop with over use.
I think that it is important that we give an explanation when we disagree with others. This is what separates an argument from a discussion. And on this forum, we prefer discussions. So, if you disagree that this kind of activity is a bad idea for dogs (and I am not necessarily saying that you are wrong), it is a good idea for you to back up your views with some kind of counter argument, rather than just saying the other person is wrong and advising people to ignore them. Instead, please give us your views on caring for dogs' joints and the risks involved in this kind of activity balanced against the benefits.
I try to have a happy medium, we do a marked retrieve for a short while nearly every day. Ripple also has a large tennis type ball but is more interested in chewing it than chasing it so we generally only play with that once or twice a week. I hadn't thought of hiding it in the long grass, that's probably something he would enjoy more. We also have a football but that rarely gets played with. My daughter bought Ripple a frisbee which we take to the beach, he never jumps for it and usually waits for it to land then goes and buries it so we have to scrabble about in the wet sand before it disappears for ever . As for tug games, again Ripple isn't really interested in the tug he just wants to chew and preferably on my feet so he can 'accidentally' chew my shoes which he knows he's not allowed to touch. After having a lab with joint problems I am really conscious of what I do with Ripple, however I feel that playing some games are good for him. It's really difficult isn't it?
My Guide Dog puppies are not allowed balls as they can become obsessed with them. So neither Gypsy nor Twiglet have had one. Luckily Tatze has never been interested either. Twiglet shows every sign of potential ball obsession - she adores the football on TV and watches the ball the whole time! Our friend's dog - Zaba, who stays with us often, has a ball and is obsessed with it - totally! I don't mind at all - I also think it will be good exercise when he gets older. He mainly swims for the ball rather than chasing on land. I can already see signs of Tatze becoming a lazy lump and, as she's not a chaser, I'm not sure how I'll get her well exercised as she gets older.
