I know, Stacia - I know you think that. BUT I CAN'T GET RID OF THE PERSON GUARDING THE DUMMY! Sorry to shout! But I can't. It's been 3 years now, and as soon as there is no-one guarding the dummy, Charlie runs in. How long do I have to have someone guarding the dummy? It costs me £25 a hour to pay someone to do it, and I've spent hundreds so far.....there has to be another way.....
I feel your pain. Wish I lived near you, would happily be the dummy person. How about putting a line on the dummy and then the person can be at a distance and if he runs in she can whisk it away! But knowing Charlie, he would soon realise what was going on! Have you tried sitting Charlie and throwing dummies round him and getting him to sit and stay? Mind you, I could do that with mine and he would be steady, once a ball landed on his tail and he never moved a muscle but as soon as we went back to retrieving he ran in! I would have thought with the clicker you could train him to sit and stay with the dummy 'guarder' moving a couple of inches away each time? There has to be a way!
Ah, it's driving me a bit mad. Charlie is really good at sitting while I throw a dummy over his head - but this gets me nothing but asking him to sit while I throw a dummy over his head. He has only learned that single exercise, in those exact circumstances. It doesn't translate into anything practical. He isn't steady in other circumstances as a result. My trainer says to use my clicker and to click for not breaking for the dummy - but it doesn't seem to work. If he breaks for the dummy, he does so again and again. It doesn't seem to matter that I click for an instance of steadiness - it does not seem to encourage him to repeat that. Indeed, even if he knows the highest value food rewards ever are on offer, it just doesn't seem to be worth his while waiting. So instead I offer him as a reward the pink ball, which has a higher value than the dummy.....so he doesn't get to fetch the dummy.... Oh, dunno....well, I have another 121 next week, so I can review then.
This is where I wish there was a way to apply positive training methods to say "no, actually, what you're doing isn't quite right". Don't get me wrong, I believe in positive training methods and use them with Ella but once in a while it does cross my mind that it would be so much bloody easier to tell them they're doing it wrong rather than wait for them to do it right!
I was also thinking that this morning @Emily . What would you do @JulieT if instead of breaking for a dummy, Charlie was running at full speed towards a road, heavy with traffic? How would you stop that? I was also thinking, that Charlie has a good stop to the whistle, have you tried blowing that as soon as he takes off and calling him back every time?
Charlie has a good stop whistle and recall, and I can now stop him if he starts to run to someone with a tennis ball thrower, or football etc. So there is no real danger of me not being able to stop Charlie in any daily life scenario - and to be honest, the number of dog owners that could make a claim they could stop their dog no manner what it was chasing, squirrel, deer, cat, pheasant etc is quite small. I can honestly make that claim though, I can stop Charlie instantly on his stop whistle in those types of situations. I am working, very slowly, through being able to stop Charlie on the way to a dummy that he considers as 'his' and expects to retrieve (which is key, I am never going to put a dummy like this on the other side of a busy road). I can do it in some 'set ups' that I've worked through already, but if I tried to impose steadiness generally by using my stop, I reckon I'd just end up busting my stop.
Agree with you there, the stop and recall are too precious to risk breaking them by over use. Could you try it with something other than the dummy and see how steady Charlie is and work on that and then reintroduce the dummy - just a thought. One of those 2 steps backwards moments before going forward again......
The issue of course is him self-rewarding... Why shouldn't he run in, when what he wants is the dummy, and when he runs in, he gets it? Are you sure he realizes that is what you DONT want? How do you communicate to him that you really want him to stay with you and not rush off for a retrieve until you send him? If Poppy ever runs in (which is very unusual) I say 'no!!' and call her back, then praise her for returning, and gently say 'let's try that again, when I say so' - I realize this is not what you want to do with Charlie, and I am wracking my brains trying to think of a different way (if you cant use the dummy guarder) and I'm not coming up with anything... Pippa once suggested a carefully-measured long line, that the handler could stand on and therefore not allow the dog to reach the dummy, if he/she ran in. I didn't much like that idea, and never had to use it.
I always read your log but never have anything to help.Dexter thinks retrieving his dummy gets food.....the dummy in itself is completely irrelevant and holds no joy,I can 'spice ' it up for him with rabbit or pheasant pelt but that just makes his return faster.....just wanted to say so you know I am following,if not helping!x Also I'm a bit embarrassed about my 'wait' I sound very severe compared to you Enjoy your lesson next week
The up side is fading out the dummy guard and rewarding not using the dummy does seem to be working - how far I'll be able to take it, I don't know. He is losing the expectation that he will ALWAYS get to fetch that dummy. I suppose it's just a variation on walking out to pick up the dummy yourself....
HeeHee - I have SUCH a terrible habit of sounding like a sergeant major, I've really been working on it! So I'm glad I sounded ok. I think I'm getting better, but sometimes I just don't realise that I do it. Say a cue in a really stern voice, when I don't use that voice to train the cue usually.
@Stacia ....see? Doesn't help me outside the garden, although I am slowly, slowly, slowly working on this in other locations. I have to start it with someone guarding the dummy though - or dropping the dummy where Charlie thinks he can't get to it before me.
If you start in the garden and continue, it will eventually transfer to the outside world, 'eventually' being the operative word
Although, @Stacia, I did take my placeboard to the Common tonight (one of my lighter ones, with the boring green astroturf so a big fail in the placeboard fashion stakes... ) and it didn't take long before I could throw a dummy over his head. I'm just not so sure where this gets me though, it's like he learns just that pattern (she throws a dummy over my head, then I sit here and get a treat while she picks it up) and it doesn't generally translate. I suppose I just have to work through every possible exercise of throwing a dummy and then it'll be ok! Until I change location or add dogs....
How about having the placeboard beside you in the heel position and throwing the dummy and the reward for staying on the board is the retrieve? If he has learnt to stay on the placeboard he should still sit there come what may! Or get someone to place the dummy and then move? You have achieved the throwing the dummy over his head with placeboard and you say it doesn't generally translate, but if you continue with this you will be setting a habit, 'this is what we do' and then you will be able to generalise I bet you feel like knocking me on the head, but only trying to help, persistance and persevernce will prevail
Hee Hee - I don't feel like knocking you on the head, @Stacia ! I'm grateful for the interest, and the help. But, there is one thing that I keep saying, which you don't seem to accept - rewarding Charlie by allowing him to get the retrieve does not make him more likely to repeat the behaviour of steadiness. It makes him less likely to repeat that, and much more likely to break - his steadiness consistently deteriorates when the reward is a retrieve. I don't know if this is an unusual thing or not, I'm beginning to think it must be! I can train Charlie to sit still if he has no real expectation of getting the dummy. As soon as he is sent once, the next time he will break in anticipation.
So, Charlie is rewarded by getting the retrieve first time, second time you get it and reward him with food/ball when you get back to him for staying on place board, you then fetch it third time and reward him when you get back and Charlie is still staying on the placeboard, then fourth time Charlie goes as reward for staying on the placeboard. So Charlie NEVER knows when it is his turn or not. Yes, I have understood that Charlie gets keener to retrieve once rewarded for doing so, so now you have to keep him guessing and hopefully his 'habit' of staying on the placeboard will overcome the excitement. I still think that that someone picking up the dummy so that he never gets the reward is the way to go, though you don't agree It cured my mad Lab and that was done with the dummy launcher which is the most exciting thing ever invented for my Lab.
