This has turned into a very interesting and thought provoking thread. I think proper socialisaton as a puppy is critical, as well as continuing this right through adult life, with an emphasis on adolescence, where natural hormone flux impacts on a dogs' behavior, so makes them more likely to want to meet other dogs, and maybe make not such great choices in the meantime. Other factors also come into play, state of arousal, other dogs, personal experiences etc. In the particular example yesterday, the dogs were male, highly aroused, had already been bothering other dogs and had experienced negative reactions from their owners. It didn't help that the owners weren't sensitive to the tension building in their dogs, in fact were quite disengaged. Hubby coming from the opposite direction had also encountered them, and noticed one of the them was wearing a dog care TShirt!! Incidentally Casper just humped the dog that had come over to him. I didn't realise until this morning they had bothered him as well. Apparently he didn't react, just humped which was interesting. Whilst I did not enjoy Bensons growling, I think it was more of a communication, reacting to the information around him...and not being reactive. He was letting them know in no uncertain terms that they had over stepped the mark, and he was not happy. I do wonder, how much our dogs absorb around what is going on? For example it was obvious to me, and hubby that these dogs were disruptive, but how aware was Benson?
Meant to add Casper didn't react in the sense of lunging and barking...humping in this instance would've probably been because he was unsure or anxious as he wasn't in an "obviously" aroused state.
I agree with Stacia. I think there are reactive dogs like mine and dogs pushed to react like Benson. A dog that's pushed to react is not reactive in my opinion. Sometimes I read threads and posts were people are worried there dogs are reactive or will become reactive but they aren't they are just reacting like dogs because they feel threatened, nervous, pushed. There is a reason a dog barks or growls a warning so it doesn't have to fight. Stopping a dog giving a warning might lead to an even worse reaction. @Beanwood I should think Benson was very aware of the other dogs' intentions and arousal levels Kate. I was going to add before your post that we can't possibly understand what signals the dogs heading towards Benson were giving off.
I think this is correct which is what I was saying and what I would expect in this situation as Benson felt he had no choice and gave his warning. Dogs have to communicate before potentially errupting into a full on fight. A warning is far better than the alternative. I have been thinking about this and I sometimes feel we have come so far in dog training and our knowledge that we expect to be able to sort EVERYTHING out but in reality we can't and really should we?
If you are training without punishment, there is no way to stop a dog from growling apart from to change the way it views a situation so it doesn't feel the need to growl. I don't have the skills to 'suppress' a growl with positive reinforcement training (I suppose there might be a way, but if there is I don't know it) all I can do it try to make my dog not feel like growling. I think most people in this conversation have read Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals? The most admirable behaviours I thought was when confident dogs avoided conflict, turned away, defused or avoided (there is a particular description that sticks in mind of Turid's own dog's reaction when faced with an extremely rude dog dashing up - her dog simply turned round and ignored the dog). I'd be much prouder of my dog if he acted like that, than responded by giving the other dog 'a good telling off'.
It has been very interesting - and I hope you don't mind too much having your scenario discussed. Benson sounds like a perfectly charming dog, so don't want you to think I think otherwise. But the debate around behaviour is very interesting all the same.
I think we would all be much prouder of our dogs if they behaved like that. The other problem I think is the behaviour of the other dog. As I mentioned before we don't know what signals the dogs running at Benson were giving off he is not usually a dog that reacts like that so for whatever reason he felt he had no choice. If the other dog has not been socialised well and hasn't learnt doggy manners then could it be possible even if your dog turned its back and ignored it it might not get the message. My dogs are only reactive with certain dogs. Their main issue is humans but that's a whole different issue. The dogs they are reactive towards are ones with what might be considered poor dog manners. For example ones that stare directly at them. This may sound like an excuse for their behaviour it isn't im not excusing what they do but it is a reason they react. They are very nervous so feel threatened by a direct stare, fight or flight kicks in and they will try both. Dogs who have good manners, give off friendly body language my dogs do not react to they respond back similarly.
I'm not knocking the owners of reactive dogs that know they have a reactive dog, and are managing it. Anyone who says "my dog is reactive, and it would help me out if......x, y, z" gets my full and immediate support. What I dislike is people that have reactive dogs, do nothing about it, and who think everyday run of the mill events are an acceptable reason for their dog being reactive. So, since I hold that view, I have to work to try to make sure my own dog doesn't react to everyday, run of the mill events. Meeting rude dogs is an everyday, run of the mill event. Staring is something I'd put in the "come across it everyday" bucket, to be honest - staring is something lots and lots of dogs do. Sometimes, but not all that often, it's an aggressive "what you lookin' at, mate" stare, more often it's "ooo, I'm a bit unsure about you, I'll just stand here and keep my eye on you while I make up my mind" or even "you look lovely, I'm absolutely dying to come say hello to you" (extremely typical in teenage dogs, see it everyday in the park).
I agree staring is common. Unfortunately it's a trigger for my dogs. Just wondering. The behaviour books and articles I've read have all suggested that a dog staring straight on at another dog is a confident, dominant possibly aggressive signal and it is not a good idea to greet a nervous dog, or any dog you don't know, like this if your a human (unfortunately can't explain that to other dogs ). Dogs would normally greet with a sideways look. I wonder then why staring is so common although I suppose in young dogs they are still learning and a dog that's unsure may think it needs to look confident. Understanding these signals and behaviours is certainly complicated.
Yes, I've read the same thing. I don't know, sometimes I think the authors see either only their own perfect dogs, or really, really, problematic dogs! Out and about, in a busy place packed full of dogs, I see all sorts of doggie behaviour and a lot of it falls way short of ideal as described in the books. I guess there are an awful lot of dogs out there that don't have perfect manners - I just think that's normal. There are geeky dogs, nerdy dogs, unsure dogs. Lots of uncertain dogs will stop and stare at another dog, particularly if the owners are walking towards one another. As a teenager, Charlie used to stare back and the end result was several minutes of the dogs looking at each other, then a cautious approach, but these days will look away, and try to make the other dog feel a bit more relaxed, but that's only because he is a bit more confident now.
I'm totally impressed that you can read a dog's mind from it's stare and know what they are thinking when so many dogs fail to understand each other
Think you've just tipped over into rude there yourself. See? Happens everyday. I'll put it down to you having a bad day, and look away.
Meeting run of the mill rude dogs is a usual occurrence for us. So much so it sadly limits where we can take Casper (our rescue lab)...who is off the scale when it comes to reactivity in open green spaces. I can take Benson to these areas because he has now at the stage where he chooses to ignore them, has good recall, stays close and is focused on me. Just to be clear, I can count on one hand, the amount of times in 2.5 years that Benson has growled at another dog...in fact maybe less than that. Therefore this instance was exceptional..and I really was not sure whether I should have let him off lead..or kept him on lead.
Yes I was struggling to remember when it had happened before. Not to say of course that I am not concerned about it though. Benson was very unhappy, and that is a state of mind I really don't want him to experience. I think going going forward I will never walk Bramble and Benson together as that was probably a factor in his reaction.
Just out of interest, if you don't mind me asking @Beanwood (because I'm thinking of getting another dog) are your dogs very different when together or apart? Charlie is very different when he is with another dog, and I'm wondering whether a second dog will change his behaviour.
Sorry, but I think that is a reactive comment - my intention is not rudeness, just stating how impressed I am with your ability reading strange dogs when out and about and knowing their intent. Oh, and I'm having a really good day
Yay!! (I can't wait!!) Tatze is more lively when the pup is around, she's a bit of a ploddy girl these days so having the pup does her good. He personality is the same, but she's more up for a run and a game. When meeting other dogs she just wants a quick bottom sniff these days and moves on, but if there are more than two she gives them a wide birth. Twiglet wants to play with everything in sight but is good at coming away when the other dog is indifferent or growly. If Twiglet is having a good old hoolie with another dog Tatze will join in, but she rarely instigates it these days (I think she gets her fill of doggy play entertaining the puppy at home!) .
