Just wondering, when you're training, how many repetitions do you do (for adult dogs)? For example, let's say we're working on steadiness - I'm working on being able to throw the dummy over the dog's head at the moment, using the clock face. They're steady at 10/2 o'clock at the moment - I haven't pushed it any further than that yet. But how many reps would you do before moving on, and would you do them all in the same session? Reading Clicker Gundog, it's suggested to do 10 reps of an exercise at a certain stimulus level, and achieve 100% at a level 3 score (that is, the behaviour is strong in both memory and physical skill) before increasing the stimulus. Is that what you stick to? Ten reps of throwing a dummy to the same location, then going and picking it up, seems like a lot to do in one go - I'm a bit worried that they'd get bored. Then, to progress, you'd increase the stimulus and do another ten? When it comes to retrieves, I don't do very many at all, because I want to keep it exciting and something they want to do. I notice a distinct slowing down if I do too many. Same with using target sticks. I'd probably do three or four retrieves in a session. I'm interested to hear how many reps the rest of you do. What would a generic training session look like?
I'm still into very basic stuff. Ripple's school want five of everything before you move on, but Ripple gets bored very quickly so when I'm doing retrieves if I get three good ones I stop, as I know the next one is likely to end up with him wandering off. I assume that as he gets older I will be able to increase the number AND keep his attention .
I could do 10 with Obi. I would do about 3 - 5 with Riley depending on enthusiasm levels and look for consistency over 2 or 3 days.
I think it completely depends on the dog - I have never known Charlie tire of something if he is being successful. I'd get bored long before he did. What I have to watch with Charlie is anticipation, which makes things go wrong. So steadiness drills go wrong because if I keep doing the same thing, he will break as anticipation builds. So that's why I limit my reps. So much for premack. I rarely move on significantly from the start of something in a single session. I'm more likely to do something, then the next session see whether Charlie can still do it, and if successful 3 times, I move on. Even then I'll often not move on but proof what I have. So, on the clock face, I would do something like: 6 o'clock, 4 o'clock, 7 o'clock x 2. Then I'd move on, walk to a different area, and try again. I'd do this over the session, spaced out, perhaps 3 or 4 times. The next session I'd see whether he could still do 6, 4, and 7 and I'd change areas again. I'm very likely to find an area where he can't do it, so I'd go back to 6. Next session, can he do 6, 4, 7 in all areas? Yes, then I'd try 3 and nine in the easiest area. Session after that if he was still doing 3 and nine in the easiest area, I'd try those in a harder area. And so on. I think this partly reflects the particular difficulty I have with Charlie. It is not difficult to train him to do anything in the same place. What's very, very, very difficult is getting him to repeat that behaviour elsewhere. So, I think the answer is very unique to your dog.
Depends on the dog.... With my Obi I'd do two or three at most in a row. Then I'd do something totally different. I could come back to the exercise after doing a few different things and try another two or three repetitions. If it was something new and interesting and we were progressing using shaping then I could do a lot more in a row. I think the key is to end when your dog is still interested and has had a success. Just got to play that by ear.
Thanks for the responses. I think the splitting it into different sessions within a training session is the key. Before I'd read your comments, I did this this evening with clock face and it certainly worked well, keeping the enthusiasm levels high.
In her book Train like a Pro, Jean Donaldson advocates 5 reps of whatever it is you are training. To move on to the next level you must score a perfect 5, to stay training at the same level is a score of 3 or 4, and with a score of 0,1 or 2 drop back a level.
I think 80 - 90% is more realistic, measured over a period of time, and a few sessions. And train for a level a bit higher than you need for the job you are going to do, knowing 'in real life' performance will deteriorate.
Totally agree! Real life will always bite you in the bum. We trained one day in a wide corridor in order to try and extend distances as the lane would keep the dogs straight. The only slight problem was the massive cock pheasant who'd legged it across the lane before the dogs arrived (I was dummy throwing that day). Strangely enough a few of the dogs hung a left halfway down the lane LOL!!!!
I also think the reps thing depends on what you're training. If it's a component part you might get 10 reps in easily. If you're doing a complex chain that may be impractical.
Surely though if you increase difficulty without having a 100% result from a set of repetitions, you are setting your dog up for failure for example if your dog can't remain in a stay of say 20 seconds for 5 repetitions is it fair to increase the stay to 30 seconds and expect success? Totally agree Barbara, the number of reps has to be dependent upon what you are trying to achieve; however if building a complex chain surely the component parts have to be 100% solid before introducing the next step in the chain to ensure success.
Yes definitely. Component parts sorted before chaining together. It's one of my bugbears about gundog classes is that you often practice chains within them when actually you should still be isolating the component parts. I guess that doesn't create a class suitable for general consumption though
The way I see it is, 100% success at every part before you move on. In the steadiness test, you should get 100% no movement towards the dummy wherever it is thrown. If the dog breaks it has self rewarded itself, so this is why the test should be 100%. Say the dog has done 4 out of 5 without moving, it has failed for us but in its mind succeeded, we must go back a step and make it easier for the dog to be steady, throw the dummy not so close to dog or behind until 100% success. All boring stuff but very important if you want a steady dog, mind you this all goes out of the window when picking up.
I find a standard of 100% a bit difficult - a human isn't 100% reliable, neither is a dog. 100% reliability doesn't seem practical for a living animal really. Sure, a dog might easily do 10 reps of something they know well without error, but I wouldn't go back a step if my dog made one error in a series of 10. I'd never get anywhere, I don't think. I work on a basis of two errors in a row, then I change something. But one error, no, I just keep going.
Maybe I am too hard on my dogs or should I say expect too much. But I still see it that if a dog runs in once it will never learn not to. Just like recall that has got to be 100%, otherwise it does not mean a thing. Of course all my dogs are steady as rocks. If they are tied to it
I'm definitely no expert and Ella's still got a good 3+ years before I could probably say she's an adult but I would tend to do 3-5 reps to see if I think she's "got" the cue. Any more and I find she gets a little bored and starts to switch off. However, I find my best test to see if I can increase the complexity of a task is throwing the cue, just once at a time, in at different points within a training session. This way Ella can't anticipate the cue so I really get to see if she understands what I'm asking for. I'd probably be looking for 90%+ success over a few sessions before I'd move on.
I think that's important. The odd error is ok (and probably my fault) but two in a row is not ok and needs a rethink (regardless of whose fault it is )
