Just had a very odd and worrying conversation and I want to share it here - I really would appreciate views from people with more experience than me. Pongo sometimes goes to Doggy DayCare when we both have to be out. He seems to love it (always very keen to get there), and although in recent months I think the owners have been over-trading and now have far too many dogs in there at once, I've had no reservations about Pongo going there. When he gets home he is exhausted - flat out panting on the floor for at least half an hour (although not truly relaxed, quite jumpy at noises etc). The owner is not a big fan of Pongo, because we argued hard for them to let him continue to attend although he is not neutered; they did give us special dispensation - which was good of them - but I'm not sure that the owner was ever happy about it. The owner is also a big advocate of Cesar Milan-style interactions with dogs. (That may be quite irrelevant but I want to give you the background.) So. I have just been to pick Pongo up from the centre, he has been there about five hours. The owner brings him to me on a lead and says that today he has had real problems with Pongo, and that he has been "very aggressive", "attacking" other dogs and trying to mount every dog. Apparently he caused (minor) injury to one dog - another labrador - through "aggressively mounting him". I'm told he was "barking and snarling". This is so very far from the behaviour I've observed in Pongo that I really don't know what to make of it. I have never seen him show a hint of aggression, ever..... even when other dogs have been having a go at him out on walks, he always wags, submits, puppy-bows, and if that doesn't work he runs away. I have occasionally seen him try a bit of mounting on one of his friends, but I'd say less than half a dozen times in his life (he is just over 2 years), and he has much more often been the mountee than the mounter! Obviously what REALLY worries me is the idea of Pongo showing aggression. What could this be? Is it likely to be a result of the over-stimulating environment of a very crowded doggy daycare? If so, should I be keeping him away from there to avoid him "learning" aggressive behaviour? (I have a feeling that the owner may be about to tell us he is banned from there anyway.) Is there any chance that there is an aggressive dog inside my gentle giant, and do I need to be worrying about that? I may be over-reacting at the end of a long day, but I'm feeling pretty upset by the incident and just wanted to share with my friends on the forum. I really would welcome any reactions / suggestions, because right now I'm not sure how to react.
I would find another day care - sounds like too many dogs in one place = stress all round. When my two are overstimulated they have a 'scrap' - it's not aggression, it's letting off too much steam. It doesn't sound good and I don't like it but it doesn't worry me either. They tend to do it just after an exciting swim so I try to remember this and put them on leads before it starts. . .
Obviously, it's all really difficult to know...but just offer my thoughts for what they are worth. From reading your post, so many alarm bells - too many dogs, owners think Cesar Milan is a good thing (what?!?), and Pongo coming home panting for 30 minutes. That's not normal. My dog has never panted for 30 minutes in his life. Even after really strenuous exercise, his breathing returns to normal within a few minutes. And being jumpy at noises.... I'd say this sounds like a highly stressful environment, and your lovely, gentle boy has been stressed and reacted to that, and probably received some kind of telling off to make it worse. Poor love. I'd give that place the boot pronto!
I tend to agree with Julie, this sounds like it is all too much for Pongo. It would be interesting to know what the other owners think, and if their dogs also seem stressed at the end of a day. I would be interested to know what others say about this snarling and barking while mounting another dog. Simba will do this too, on occasion, and it is always in the context of the other dog being entire. It does seem oddly aggressive rather than playful, which certainly fits with his general more aggressive approach to other non-castersated dogs. Which has been discussed on other threads (in general, I mean). Anyhow sounds like this particular place is more trouble than it is worth st this point.
I agree, Pongo is overwhelmed. I would look for another doggy day care, or indeed just a dog walker. I don't agree with dogs playing like mad, things get out of control.
I would definitely be looking for another establishment. I would worry that the owner had been using her CM style interactions with my dog if she thought he was too boisterous, as that would surely escalate the situation leading to Pongo appearing aggressive, which you know he isn't. Also, it does sound like mayhem - too many dogs. I don't think you're over-reacting at all.
I would definitely walk away from the day care, it sounds badly managed with too many dogs in attendance leading to stress and friction. It is possible that Pongo was showing aggression, one of the things I'm learning from my course is that any dog can show aggression if the right buttons are pushed in the right order, without wanting to anthropomorphosise it's rather like a very mild,calm person losing their temper and hitting someone. It's also possible that it's behaviour that Pongo is learning from other dogs; unfortunately they learn bad behaviour as well as good. One thing is for certain I would not go any where near an establishment which holds up CM as a good example of dog training.
It's horrible when you've been told your dog hasn't behaved well, or out of character. (I now have a little more sympathy for parents when I send a child home with a detention.) It does sound that the situation was getting stressful for him.
Too bad it's not one of the places with Doggy Cams so the facility owners and the dog owners can look in at any time and there is a recording. I'd wonder if a DDC might not need video surveillance for their own protection. I agree it sounds like not the right place for your dog. Unfortunately it would be nice to know if that's because of Pongo or if it's because of how he is treated there, by people and dogs. FWIW I did have problems with Oban becoming nasty to his best friend and we, with the help of some folks on Champdogs, came to a resolution that did indeed point to over stimulation. I had been telling him the morning of that he was going to walk with his spayed, female GSD friend and he got so worked up about it he was very rough with her. When I stopped telling him ahead of time he stopped being rough.
Thank you, thank you, thank you everyone! I've calmed down a bit now (with the help of a chicken dinner and a big glass of cider). Yes, I think we need to find alternative options for Pongo when he needs care during the day - that centre is not the right place for him. It is a real pity, because I do believe that when we first started going there it was great - much smaller, no more than ten dogs even on a busy day, lots of pleasant chill-out areas and staff who were really involved and made sure that any dogs getting over-excited got to spend some time in the chill-out zones. Pongo loved it and came home tired, but not as flaked out as he does now. Now it really does look like a free-for-all. So we need an alternative. There are no other easy local daycare options, but we can look into using a dog walker. I'd like to think he still has the chance to interact with other dogs, because otherwise he doesn't have a lot of opportunity (our agility class has been cancelled which is a real shame). But no more Doggy DayCare. I love this forum. Thanks all.
Thanks Julie, that really is interesting. And makes me feel easier about deciding it is not the right option for my boy.
Hehe, how very "West Country" (my loverrrrrr) I'm glad you're feeling a bit better now. It really does sound as if it's time to move on. Good luck with finding a good dog walker; that sounds like the most suitable option for your precious boy.
I think, if you can find a trusted dog walker, that's best. I have interviewed a LOT of dog walkers, and I meet an awful lot out and about where I walk. There are good dog walkers, and bad dog walkers. I've found 2 great dog walkers - they are just so very, very good. If I have a problem with Charlie they are the first people I consult, and they have great contacts with behaviourists etc. They also put the groups of dogs together really well and never take more than 3 (plus their own dog). Good dog walkers, really good ones, are worth their weight in gold.
Wow, that is small! The dog walkers I see at the place I walk by my family usually have 6 or 7 dogs. I always wonder how they can possibly manage them all.
On parts of Wimbledon Common, and the royal parks, a person needs a licence to be a dog walker, and there are additional by-laws in place preventing any person walking more than 4 dogs. The best dog walkers can use these areas, the areas just outside are know as the 'wild west' where the dog walkers without a licence/walking more than 4 dogs walk.
I think I know Pongo quite well and can assure you that he is not aggressive in any way. He is a big lad, but is so gentle with Harley and all the dogs who come on the forum walks. I'm really surprised to read what the day care place said! I would never say anything like that about Pongo........as you know, we all Pongo. I don't work full time, so please do feel free to contact me if you are stuck as my working hours are very flexible and I would be more than happy to have him for the odd day. I think you are making the best decision in not sending him back there........it does sound like they are over stimulating him and not being very positive about him. Big hugs xxx
We are lucky to live in the middle of nowhere...... but the downside is that we have limited choice of things like dog walkers and day care! But I'm sure we can find someone.
