So, I have my little 14 week old man, Arnie here. I am a serial researcher and always look for opinions and real life experiences on pretty much everything. I am 99 percent sure I wanna switch to raw feeding when Arnie is grown up, but I want some opinions on raw feeding for a puppy. The breeder I got him from recommended Royal Canin Maxi Junior and Hills Science Diet large breed Puppy for the first 18 months while he is growing. Obviously I don't want him growing too fast so that he develops health issues later on. The breeder has 20 years experience in breeding and owning labradors and feels like these brands are the best she can recommend for proper joint development and growth. I have stuck to these brands and feel comfortable continuing with them, however, I would like some opinions on raw feeding for puppies. The reason I am asking is because on the dog food advisor, the royal canin brand scores poorly and comes with a "not recommended" rating. However, BARF, scores very well and is highly recommended. I don't know much about the scoring system from the dog food advisor, so I do take it all with a bit of a grain of salt. One of the concerns I have about raw feeding is balance. Are these meals properly balanced for growing puppies? Would I be better off just sticking with the kibble until he is a bit older, or would it be a good idea attempting raw now? Opinions, complaints, death threats, all welcome. Thanks A.
No death threats, lots of salt. If you are reading the Dog Food Advisor then I will assume you are in N. America and instead I suggest you look at: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/ There you will learn how to read labels, what AAFCO really means, what terms are legitimate (no legal meaning as far as dog food goes to the word "holistic" for example) and what ingredients really are. Some ingredients are just fine depending where in the list they fall but a concern if there's too much of them. This is much more work for you but I bet you will find it satisfying. Raw is also discussed there. I no longer feed raw, BARF, due to a health issue and I never did feed a puppy. But from what you write I can see you need to do a little, make that probably a lot, more research. For one thing, I have finally figured out that BARF is the name of some pre-packaged foods but that's not the only way to feed Bones And Raw Food. Or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food is the other meaning. I fed BARF at the instigation of our VEt and I fed whole foods, only a few pre-made mixes, and I had to ensure the balance was there (with my Vet's help) all on my own. Myself, I fail to see how buying pre-made mixes is much different than buying pre-made kibble. Raw, the way I fed it with whole foods and I even bought the high end blender so I could mush up the hard vegetables (raw sweet potato is about as hard as a piece of lumber, needed horsepower) is quite a bit of work and planning. And more expensive for me. And, it's really, really, really nice if your Vet supports it. My Vet even loaned me her Dr. Billinghurst books and some others. Myself, I think I'd be afraid to screw up a puppy's growth ( and it might have voided my breeder's health guarantee) to feed raw. I would be too nervous to try till after I'd gone through feeding an adult dog, I think. People do though, successfully, hope some are on here and will be along to guide you soon.
It's so hard to know what to do for the best when it comes to feeding our pups and their is just so much information to take on board. I've been doing research on a site all about dog food for my course and all though there is some good information I'm not sure about how they rate some of the food particularly when companies can sponsor links to purchase products. I'm in the process of changing Juno's food (final day of mixing new and old) and according to the site what I'm switching her to isn't highly rated despite the fact that they have very little info on the food at all and have some information fundamentally wrong. Some interesting help from Snowshoe who has fed raw, but have to admit it's something I wouldn't move to and agree with Snowshoe on the pre-made mixes v pre-made kibble but others have different views and that's what makes life interesting
Why wait? Dried dog food is really heat processed fast food. Imagine eating at McDonalds every meal for your entire life. Feed your dog kibble and that's what your doing. I started after week 11 and we're both very pleased we did. Kibble made my pup bloated, passed horrid gas, drank excessive amounts of water, and was pooping 4 times a day. All that totally changed when we went raw. I transitioned but if I did it over again I'd stop cold and go raw immediately. However, it takes planning and time and a good source and variety of raw food. Walmart is your friend for chicken quarters --10 to a bag for $7. He gets one in the morning and in the evening has a mixture of ground beef, turkey, gizzards, tripe, and either a chicken back or necks, and/or turkey neck. I'll throw in a green bean, tablespoon of sweet potato or pumpkin. Several days a week I'll serve him whole mullet fish. For special occasions he'll have half a rabbit and for really special times a rabbit head with ears, hair and all. At 7 months 65 pounds he's getting 22-25 ounces a day. If stateside Simply Rawsome online has a wide variety of products. Every 10 days we prepare the meals in bowls and freeze them. Besides being a healthy dog lab owners mostly comment about his soft as silk coat.
I think whatever you feed is a personal choice and people shouldn't be judged by what they choose. We started with kibble (Royal Canin) when we first got Harley. After 3 months of her being poorly, having tests etc we found she was allergic to wheat. We then changed to Bob and Lush food (very good quality, but a bit steep on the pocket). Harley done really well on this food. After lots of research, I decided to try BARF. I use Natures Menu which is raw mince and bone ground together. Personally I have seen a huge difference in Harleys coat, eagerness to eat and her behaviour settle. She gets a raw meaty bone at least once a week and she loves fruit and veg as snacks. I would love to feed raw but can't stomach handling animal heads, feet and things like that. At the end of the day, I'm happy with what I feed her, and my vet has noticed positive changes too.
I agree with @Naya Its up to the owner to make their own informed choice of food, what suits one may not suit the next etc. I feed a mix to both of mine , some good quality kibble but raw as and when I can , lots of fish too, also raw . I think whatever suits the dog , the dog is thriving and has no issues , then go with it .
I'm sure a carefully designed raw diet might suit loads of dogs, and I'm sure it could be better for teeth (if suitable bones are fed, although the speed at which my dog can crunch up a duck neck makes me wonder if 3 chomps and it's gone really does all that much for teeth....). Kibble is cooked, and it is processed. It is not, however, the same as a human eating a diet that is far too high in calories, fat, salt and sugar, which is an objection to a lot of processed food designed for humans. A suitable kibble does not have too many calories, fat, salt and sugar. It is possible, if people want to avoid both heat processing and carbohydrate (although a lot of people feeding a home prepared dog diet feed carbohydrate in the form of vegetables anyway), to buy freeze dried meat and bone kibble if that's what they want to feed.
Thanks for all the information guys. I am actually in Australia, and just used dog food advisor as a reference. I feel like there is so much information out there that it is really overwhelming. I just want to do what's best for my dog, but I almost don't know where to start
If you want to look into it properly, understand kibble and the pros and cons of both kibble and raw, I can recommend a book: DOG FOOD LOGIC - MAKING SMART DECISIONS FOR YOUR DOG IN AN AGE OF TOO MANY CHOICES. https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DN332 "Don’t read this book if you want someone to tell you what to feed your dog. This is a book for people who want to learn, in a reasoned and thoughtful way, how to figure it out for themselves." Jessica Vogelsang, DVM, CVJ
If you're not sure whether you want to go to raw feeding why not produce a list of Pros and Cons for raw feeding and for kibble feeding. It might help you to make a decision. Remember though that the pros and cons must also consider how each feeding style works for you, your family and your life style. Good luck
If you're in Australia then there are a couple of pre-mixed raw foods you can try: - Ian Billinghurst's BARF: http://www.barfaustralia.com/Products/BARFFlavours/BARFVarietiesforDogs.aspx - Big Dog: http://bigdogpetfoods.com/ I've used both and both are good (though I now just do raw meaty bones rather than a pre-mix). There is another option that I have used which is a dry mix that you add to ground up meat (mince, roo mince etc) of your choice to make it into a complete, balanced meal: - Vet's All Natural: http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/ I would feed any of the above to a puppy. There are no doubt other pre-prepared mixes out there, but the ones I've mentioned will have some research and testing behind them. They are an easy option if you want to dabble in raw but are not sure about how to get the nutrient balance right yourself. You can definitely add thing like chicken wings or lamb necks etc for some meals.
Thanks Oberon. I have a box of Ian Billinghurst's BARF in the freezer, with one pattie defrosting so I can feed him lunch. I am gonna try it for lunch and see if his stomach holds up. I am sure it will, he's never had stomach issues. As far as feeding BARF to a growing puppy, is it more beneficial than the kibble foods I mentioned, in your opinion?
http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/raw-dog-food-dietary-concerns-benefits-and-risks I have just read this. It doesn't look good. It states that if the balance between calcium and phosphorus is off, in puppies, it can lead to bone deformities and growth issues. This is my biggest concern. However, I am yet to find research showing that premium dry kibble won't produce, or has the potential to produce, the same issues. I realise that diet isn't the only factor that can cause these issues too, but it's just what I am wrestling with at the moment.
As you said it can be a bit overwhelming with contrary opinions on either side of the argument for and against raw feeding. And yes the right combo of raw ingredients is important. Keep reading and you'll figure it out for yourself. I agree with friends who say it's just easier to open the bag and cup it out even if it is "junk" food. BTW your link above did not work for me. Here's another "guide" on raw you may have not seen yet. http://rawfeddogs.org
I'm not sure if BARF is really better than good quality kibble, as far as nutrition goes. I think the jury is out on that! As I said I personally would feed any of these commercial raw diets to a puppy but I have been feeding raw/home prepared for many years, so I am very comfortable with it. If you have any doubts about feeding a raw diet then it might give you more peace of mind to feed kibble till he has reached his adult height. There is definitely nothing wrong with a good quality kibble If you want you can still include things like chicken wings or thighs or ox tails or turkey necks or lamb ribs now and then to allow him to give his teeth a good self-clean. That is an advantage of feeding raw, meaty bones - it is very good for dental health. A kibble only or soft food only (including pre-packaged raw!) won't clean teeth. However another option is skipping the meaty bones and just brushing his teeth (brushing is actually the best thing of all for dental health). Try not to get too stressed about it Just take your time doing your research and in the meantime feel comfortable continuing to feed a good quality kibble, which you are doing. I think that Royal Canin or Hills are both perfectly fine
We fed raw from day one as that is what the breeder did - Hugo is 15 weeks now and eats minced beef turkey and bone with veg x
Hi @Somatic I've spent the last month researching commercial dog food as part of an assignment for my course and have had quite a few conversations with manufacturers regarding the source of their ingredients, processing and testing and I have no qualms with feeding my girl a good quality kibble. It is not "junk food" but the result of scientific balancing of nutrients. It is actually the "fillers" that you most have to look out for together with the order of ingredients on the label. I found this article regarding calcium and phosphorous in the diet, particularly that of a puppy which may be helpful http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=652
Thanks @MaccieD I will look into that article. It really is a minefield of different and contradicting information. Thanks to everyone on this forum. Everyone has been so helpful and welcoming. I really appreciate it
Can I use raw foods as a treat once or twice a week and kibble the majority of the time? Any harmful effects?
Hi there @stevesnj an welcome to the forum. What sort of raw foods were you thinking of using as treats? I can't see that there would be any problems, just depends upon what hour were thinking of and the practical of using as treats. It would be lovely if you popped over to the 'Introductions' to say hi and tell us about yourself and your puppy
