This is a long post! Feel free to skip over it! About a month ago, Charlie had a run in with a very large, very heavy, and aggressive mastiff type dog on the Common. This was seriously scary, this massive, heavy dog jumping on poor Charlie growling and snarling like he meant to kill him. I was very, very scared but wasn’t quick enough to get hold of the dog, but by screaming at the owner of the mastiff, I shocked the guy into rugby tackling his dog – he really flung himself at his dog’s collar and too right! Charlie was not obviously physically hurt - he was faster and more agile than this dog and, although Charlie received a good few thumps as the dog threw himself at Charlie , had managed to keep dodging out of reach of the dog’s mouth and had wriggled away a good few times before this horrible vile dog had the chance to bite him. I was shaken, but brushed it off – what else was there to do? - and hoped Charlie had as well. We carried on with our walk, and Charlie seemed was his usual self and, to be honest, I thought my ‘bombproof dog’ (because Charlie really has always seemed to be that) had taken it in his stride as usual. But over the next couple of weeks, I noticed some changes in Charlie. Whereas previously he’d been a completely unreactive dog - in terms of being nervous, he has always been reactive in terms of being excitable and playful, nagging to say hello to dogs - I first noticed him growling back at dogs that growled at him, and then last week, he growled and lunged at a (male) off lead dog while he was on lead, and looked stiff and uncomfortable when another approached him (both dogs on lead). Both times the other dog was a Chocolate Labrador which might be a coincidence, or maybe not, as a year ago Charlie was attacked by a Chocolate Labrador – dunno…. I do appreciate that other people have dogs that are really quite reactive (and hats off to them for caring, keeping their dogs happy, and managing very well), and they might be rolling their eyes at this, but I don’t take it at all lightly, not at all. I think it’s a very significant change in a dog that has previously been remarkably unreactive to other dogs. It is also possible that, in between cartrophen injections when I’ve been monitoring Charlie’s stiffness, that he is less tolerant to any dog jumping on him, of course. So there may be an element of Charlie finding it painful to be jumped on by other dogs (this possibly might have a link to bouncy Labradors being a problem). I have an (apparently, we’ll see….) extremely well qualified behaviourist coming to see Charlie but not until early May. But anyway, all I can expect of a behaviourist that observes Charlie over a couple of hours is hopefully some intelligent insight into how my dog is around other dogs and some standard ‘avoidance’ techniques. This might be helpful, but I feel that it is highly unlikely to be any kind of solution and I feel it is a mistake to book a behaviourist and think 'that's that taken care of', which is hugely unrealistic. So, I have called in a great deal of favours and have set out a programme of very careful meetings and playdates for Charlie. We are taking it very, very slowly, and presenting Charlie with the mildest of challenges each day. I have manage to line up a lot of strange male dogs for him to meet. I'm videoing them all, so I can send them to the behaviourist (if that is any good, of course). Today, Charlie had a meet and greet out on a walk (to make the scenario of meeting other dogs realistic), and then a playdate, with his BFF and 3 strange dogs, 2 bitches and one very small and very, very friendly male dog (a Terrier, so I take back everything negative I have ever said about Terriers, this was the most perfect of dogs ever). In the video, he is looking a bit stiff meeting the strange male dog, but got over that within seconds to be chief in charge of the chasey game, which was lovely to see after worrying quite a bit. And I’m not so sure being a bit wary of an approaching male is all that unusual (although is for Charlie ). I’m going to continue like this until I see the behaviourist, keeping Charlie mainly away from other dogs that haven’t been carefully vetted in advance as suitable for him to meet (but living where I do it’s unrealistic to expect to avoid all other dogs, but I haven’t yet had a problem in getting Charlie to just ignore other dogs). I expect to spend months on this before I can be confident I have returned Charlie back to normal. Which is not big deal really (so long as it all goes to plan), what’s hard about meeting loads of lovely dogs for a playdate romp in the springtime woods? Says Charlie, anyway…. The next playdate was due to be Friday, but I’ve an offer come in tomorrow of 3 male teenagers, all very friendly, that I’m tempted by….I think that might be fine….Charlie says he’s keen to give it a go! I'll think about it... 1st male by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr
We don't meet many dogs, very rarey and I tend to keep mine away from other dogs, Rourke wants his ball more than other dogs, Drift is more difficult and goes stiff legged. I don't want mine playing as large Labs can damage themselves. Once Drift knows the dogs he is fine and even if they jump up into his face to play with them, he just carries on walking and ignores them. I thought Charlie looked relaxed with the dogs, in the first greeting he did look a bit 'stiff legged' (nothing to do with gait but body language!) but then I realsied it was more an invitation to play. I am sure Charlie will get over it quickly.
Charlie does look more "aware" of the other dogs, I agree (with my limited experience) that to my eye it looks like Charlie is waiting for an invitation to play. The other dogs are familiar with each other and are happy just to sniff around and immerse themselves in scent than play with each other. On the whole I would say Charlie is being very well mannered and cognizant of the other dogs behaviours. They also are not wary of Charlie which also I think is good, meaning in my mind that Charlie is giving off all the right signals. What I find interesting, is that there is roughly 6 months between Charlie and Benson? Whilst all dogs are different I can see where you are coming from, having a couple of unpleasant instances with other dogs and Benson. Having a highly reactive dog like Casper actually makes me completely paranoid in this learned behaviour developing in Benson or Bramble for that matter. Benson has growled recently at other dogs, whose behaviour was unacceptable. So I am working on a plan of only meeting known dogs under close supervision and being careful where I take him/them. I am getting fed up of unruly borderline dogs atm....
What a horrible experience. I do feel for you Julie; as you know Poppy was surrounded by four big dogs (three Ridgebacks and a Weimaraner) a few weeks ago and badly bitten by one of the Ridgebacks. She had to have emergency treatment and the bite stapled shut. It has healed up well, though still very visible (I hope the fur grows back over it). She seems fine with most dogs, but reacts differently to big brown dogs that she doesn't know - either she growls at them, or else she lies down on the floor, totally submissive, avoiding all eye contact, and then when she feels the coast is clear, sprints over to me for protection. I keep introducing her to other dogs after checking that they are friendly, and so far the interactions have been positive. Like you, I am hoping that over time the positive experiences will help get her over the fright and fear of her Ridgeback Experience. I find that I am also having to relearn my own reaction to big, unknown dogs, as I notice I get very nervous, and I am sure this doesn't help the situation. I know you are going through the same feelings! I do feel that Charlie is such a confident, happy, outgoing dog, that he will get over this, and that the positive meetings you are arranging for him will do the trick in reassuring him that male dogs are generally not a threat.
I don't really want Charlie to play with other dogs, but I do wonder if (because I've been worried about him after he was limping earlier in the year) I restricted his contact with other dogs too much. It would be a complete and utter nightmare to have a reactive dog in London, so I'm really keen to nip in the bud any emerging problems. Plus the example of Charlie growling at the other dog when he was on lead was just flat out unacceptable, so there is definitely something for me to deal with here. Yes, @Karen, for sure my reactions will be part of it. It's so difficult!
Charlie has a really high (particularly for a Labrador) way of carrying his tail. Do you see? When he is waiting for the male dog to trot up to him, his tail is really high. I do wonder if that gives off the wrong signal. Although the other dogs didn't seem bothered by it at all.
Riley has a high tail carriage when meeting new dogs too. I'm always watchful becuase of it as I don't think it looks relaxed. Often the dogs he's meeting have hackles up in arousal and I'm reasonably sure that's something to do with it. After they realise he's actually a wet blanket it all chills out but we do get the odd growl which mostly evokes a submissive behaviour from Riley which defuses the situation. Sometimes it escalates but rarely above the growling. Riley has to be really pushed to grumble back. I've never thought Riley has a relaxed confident manner in greeting other dogs but it hasn't got any worse. I'm sure you and Charlie will get through this phase and back to normality (as normal as Charlie gets )
Yes I have noticed that about Charlie, I guess with well socialised dogs it is like a cluster of body language signals. Benson holds his tail very low, sometimes it looks almost too heavy for him!
I think Charlie did great in the video, he met all sizes of dogs. I also think some doggy play will be useful for him to continue to update his 'dog language' memory banks. How awful that such an aggressive dog was out of control and went for him Whose is the crazy beagle? .
Oh Julie, I really feel for you, what a horrible experience although I'm sure it will work out fine. Mabel went through a dreadful submissive, very nervous phase after she was attacked by a staffie last year. I do despair at so many owners. It is a real worry. I, like so many others on the forum don't like my girl playing with strange dogs. She of course has other ideas . It's been a steep learning curve as I'm so over protect because of her ED. It's difficult not to be. Today I was thinking how lucky I am as I can go on walks where we are lucky to see a dog. The walks we do that maintain her socialisation still mean we may see a maximum of 10-12 dogs, joggers, children etc, it really must be incredibly difficult for you living in London.
That's Peanut, Charlie's BFF. She is lovely, really lovely. And has a great recall! She belongs to my dog walker, and spends her day on dog walks! She likes to sleep at the weekends.
Charlie carries his tail like that all the time. I was watching him today, and even if he is just waiting for my attention (to admire him splashing in a puddle or something like that ) he holds his tail in the same high position.
I understand how you are feeling. After Harley got attacked by the collie for the third time last month, she became reactive to collies and other large dogs. After the first two attacks she would carry on as normal and we had no problems (I thought!). When she retaliated on the third attack I realised that something had to be done. I spoke to several owners where I walk and set up some play dates. The first one was with a GSD who is very placid. Harley went straight on the defensive and growled then barked and went to chase him off......I blew my whistle and she actually stopped! We then moved away and spent half an hour playing in the same field, but not together. We are on week 4 and last weekend they played together for 15 mins. I called it a day then as I wanted it to finish on a good note. We have also walked with some Spinones and beagles. I seen the collie in the distance on Sunday so popped her on the lead just as she spotted him. Her hackles went up so we walked off in the opposite direction. My dog walker is setting up a training scenario for us with a collie next week. I am in discussions with a behaviourist and will go down this route if the training scenarios and play dates don't go well. Harley has always been a placid girl and has never been aggressive until her attacks, but I don't want this behaviour escalating as it isn't who she is. I look forward to hearing about how you tackle this and I hope Charlie can relax again. I would appreciate any tips you have.
Thanks for your post, @Naya, I have to say I've been really upset about it all, and I found reading about someone tackling it in a similar way very heartening. I don't think I have any tips, really - not yet anyway, but I'll be sure to post about how we get on through this journey. I haven't had any more 'events' so far anyway. I've been keeping him in really quiet areas though (as best I can in London), so not coming across all that many dogs. He walked on lead by 2 off lead male (and very nervous) looking off lead dogs tonight, and was fine. He looked over to them, but that's normal for him. Goodness knows what would happen if we met a mastiff though! Thankfully, I don't see so very many.
It is very upsetting and scary which is why I'm determined to stop it ASAP. I got the setting up training scenarios/play dates idea from your posts over the years of how you have dealt with Charlie's over excitement with balls/remote controlled cars etc. So, thank you for your previous posts Unfortunately we see so many collies that it's proving difficult to avoid them. On a positive note though, it will hopefully be easier to work on as we see so many so won't be a shock when we are around one. I just need to work on my reactions when I spot one!
I do feel for you Julie, that must have been so scary, poor Charlie and you. I hope you do manage to nip any problems arising from this nasty dog incident in the bud. I haven't any advice to give you as I haven't any experience with this as yet.
It was a busy meet and greet walk today, even though we were walking in the quietest part I know. He looked a bit nervous when 4 small dogs (a dog walking pack) all came up to him at the same time, although, he has never been keen on very small dogs and although he doesn't look very confident I am not sure this isn't how he'd normally be (like I say, he isn't all that keen on small dogs and there were 4 of them...). I moved him on from the bull type dog (I think this was a Staffi), perhaps unnecessarily because then they peed on each other's pee and seemed fine. Apart from that, it all looked pretty normal to me.... 2nd group walk by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr
It looks all very normal to me, Julie! He's a bit uncertain at times I suppose, but I don't see that as anything alarming. Certainly you know your dog best and I don't want to infer that nothing is off with him. But I see his reactions to other strange dogs approaching as being just the same as most dogs would display at the approach of a strange dog - wary, but interested. Glad that the interactions seem to be going well so far, though. I hope you won't see any mastiffs again for a long, long time!!
I suppose that's what I want at this stage....we are way off (deliberately) meeting any large males, or having him on lead around large males. And I haven't run into any by accident. 2 large male Labradors trotted by the group and Charlie ran towards them, I just called him back though, so I don't know if he would have growled etc. if he'd have caught up with them or was just saying hello (which wouldn't have been unusual for 'old' Charlie).
