Hi all Something happened today which was not good and I would really like your advice on it. Firstly, to give a bit of background, Murphy is 15 months old and lives with my two children aged 8 and 3 - he adores them, and likewise, and we have never had any issues at all with their relationships. My son has always had lots of friends around and Ive always been so proud that Muphy has never tried to jump up at any of the children and although still excitable with adults, usually very good. We went for a day out today - nothing unusual, although we were out for a few hours. Part of this time we were in the countryside to watch a theatre show outdoors. So we were sitting in the shade (though the sun wasnt really out) it was nice and cool and Murphy wasn't overheated or anything like that. Basically the issue was two fold. Everytime one or the other of us walked away from him (to chase our 3 year old mainly or walk her around) he was whining, pulling, obviously anxious that we werent all together. I can see that it was a bad idea taking him. He really struggles with doing nothing - this was the worst thing in training classes, brilliant whe being worked but the waiting around and doing the settle he wouldnt rest. So I understand he was in a very hyped up sense of mind...but basically a 4/5 year old boy came over and started fussing him on his side. I always have a tight hold as I dont want him to jump up but he was just stood still, looking off at where my partner was walking around. In hindsight, I should have got up and moved but I didnt think anything of it, when he basically jumped up towards this kids face and caught him on his cheek. It wasnt a bit or a nip, but more of headbut and thank god the kids parents didnt see and the boy was ok. But I have come home feeling terrible and crying because i fele like I have a dog that is too hyped up (over stimulated) or something, but I cant believe he went towards the boys face and I am mortified. Ive had to come upstairs as I cant even look at him. My partner just says hes young, he was over excited, he needs to learn to settle when out etc etc. I dont know. I just feel like my confidence in him has gone today and if anyone has ANY suggestions I would really love to hear them. Thanks
Yes, these things easily happen. Put it down to experience and be more vigilant next time. Tatze is three and fine out and about, but in the house she is simply terrible for jumping up at people. Over excited doesn't begin to describe her state of mind. ...
It was an accident, a mistake. We did "chill out" exercises, they might help. They are meant to teach your pup there just are times he must control himself and chill out. Our trainer would not take someone in her class to the next level if they did not do these in her beginner classes.
Thanks, I think thats what my concern is, like what WAS he thinking at this point you know? Do you think a dog can be naturally highly strung? Thats how I would describe him when out and about - walks lovely on the lead, great with dogs, got so much better even with people greeting him, but just cannot stand still and do nothing!
Lilly is 6 and if we are out in a group (shops or elsewhere) will whine dreadfully if one of us leaves her party. I think they get so wrapped up and focused that they really just zone out. Comparable I guess to what happens in a stampede. I think the settle exercises are a good idea. Having an ability to just chill out, as Snowshoe says. Practice. Practice. Practice
I think I will look up about the chill out exercises... In the training they just told us to put our foot on their lead so they had to lay down. I found that this just made him lay there barking at me! But if I just let him stand up he would stand still and at least be quiet but he is wired you know?
I think your partner is right Obviously headbutting a child isn't ideal and perhaps you might refuse a petting in future or stand on his lead attached to collar so he can't jump up. It's not a dogs job to be petted by all and sundry and it's our job to manage interaction and train our friends to be sociably acceptable Don't let it get you down. Make a plan and move on
Thanks - yes its amazing what a couple of hours perspective does. One thing I realised about the settle thing is that I only ever ask him to do this when we are out (on his lead - I say settle when we are eating and he lays down, but I never do this on a lead at home!) - so its been a good learning curve for me, and having looked it up Im going back to square one, re-introducing this, at home! Where he might have a chance of actually being able to do the right thing! You ll be pleased to know I have forgiven him!
He is only 15 months so is still learning. I think sometimes we expect them to behave calmly without showing them how. It sounds like there was a lot going on around him which might of made it all the more exciting. It took 5 visits to my mums house For Harley to learn that she could also relax there as she does at home. The first 4 visits were quite frantic, but got slightly better each time. Now when we got up there she says hi to everyone, has a sniff around then will settle with a chew or Kong. Harley is nearly 3 and this calm behaviour at my mums has come over the 14 months as my mum never used to like dogs as she's scared of them and she didn't meet Harley until she was nearly 18 months.
I don't think you need to be worried about this. I think that maybe the whole day was a bit too much of a challenge for him, so he did something he wouldn't normally do (jump at a kid). Have a read on the internet about 'trigger stacking'. Basically, things (triggers) that are stressful add up, and so a little thing that would normally be easily coped with suddenly elicits a not-normal reaction from the dog. To use a human analogy - imagine that the car ran out of petrol one day, the next day you lost your phone, that afternoon the dog wee-ed in the house, that night you burned your dinner and the next morning a good friend was ever so slightly rude to you. So you totally lost it at your friend, who was shocked because you had never done anything like that before. But the triggers had stacked up and the friend's rudeness (normally something you wouldn't mind) was simply the last straw on top of a tonne of straw. So, Murphy's coping resources were low because of things like the new environment, the waiting around and his family members randomly running off. Something he normally would take in his stride was a bit much on top of that. So this definitely doesn't mean that he's suddenly become a 'child headbutter' or jumper-up Now you have a better idea of what his coping resources are and of how much is too much at this young age.
I think that sounds like a challenging day - doing nothing is difficult for a young dog. It's so easy not to work hard at 'doing nothing'. Charlie is still a bit rubbish at it. The trainer I work with says a 1 hour 'walk' should be: 20 mins free time (but close to you and paying attention to you); 20 mins training; and 20 mins doing nothing.
This was last year with my previously departed dog, Dozer. I always had a problem with him being hyper. He loved to play when he was outdoors. He would jump on people and he always knocked children over. Thus how he got his name, Dozer. Anyway, my brother n laws father came down one day when I was visiting with my sister and my dog jumped on him. He told me that he could break my dog of that in 24 hours. At this point Dozer was already like 4 years old so I responded, "I doubt it but give it a shot." With my permission he took Dozer to a very crowded place which made me very nervous because I didn't know what to expect. He put his leash on him and did the whole foot thing on the leash. He forced Dozer to sit while all these people walked by, some running and a lot of attention from people just coming up and petting him. He did not let the dog get up at all and never once told him any commands other than sit and stay when he first started. He did this while changing locations several times and by the time he left, Dozer had stopped jumping and was no longer super excited around large crowds. Just a thought, it worked for my dog so it could work for yours. Good luck!
Thanks very much for the advice (and support!) I totally think the thing about the trigegr stacking is bang on, and I shouldnt have let him get into that situation, as it was too much I think in hindsight - yu often think that your dog would be happiest with you, but in reality as he is happy being left at home, he probably would have had a much better 3 hours on his own with some kongs!! I need to step up and stop being a wuss...stop feeling bad if we exclude him from stuff (as actually he is perfectly happy being left!) and see that he is a fidgety dog and if its going to be lots of waiting round = thats not fun for him...that being said Im certainly going to do a bit more work on the settle and start adding this into walks - doing some waits/settles when out and more at home. Thanks again, feel so much more reassured!
It sounds like you're on the right path, and getting a plan in place. I would avoid using the method described by @Stryker because - as much as it might have worked for Dozer - it can have the opposite effect on some dogs. Doing something like this is called "flooding", and it can be both highly stressful for the dog, and counter-productive. Especially if the behaviours are borne out of stress. Even though it may seem like they're fine when in that busy location, they're actually "shut down", because it's too much for them to process. These feelings of stress can then become associated with far less busy situations, meaning that the dog feels anxious any time he comes across someone on the street. This could manifest in many ways, from being bouncy, to being obviously afraid, to being snappy. Or, to being shut down again. Which looks very much like calmness, but is anything but, and can be a ticking time bomb.
First of all... murhpthemurf... be happy, he let you know that he was unconfortable... and nothing with bad consequences happened... now you have the opportunity to train and improve yours dog's skills on that situation, to prevent some potential problem. I would not use a flooding technic, unless a professional behaviourist is in charge... totally agree with snowbunny... in that situation, your dog could "hide" the symtoms of his unconfort, but not being relaxed, so he could be a "silent weapon", and trigger on any small situation... I think that this technics have to be taken with professional behaviourists. But, you can take another way... which is not necessary to be a pro in order to be successful, just to work on successive approximations, "raising the bar" on stimuli, but in a progressive mode... maybe that day, in some way was an "over-flooding" situation for your dog. Do not be scary about your dog, he is not a monster, just had no resources to manage that specific situation... just give to him the tools to manage his anxiety... be confident, your dog is your best friend... help him to manage himself... Best regards... Pedrolo.
It sounds to me like you have an adolescent dog who is by and large incredibly well behaved, but had a slip up. I totally understand how scary that must have been for you, but it sounds like you have the right attitude to work through it and manage anything like that it in the future. As everyone says to me about my dog, he's just a puppy really. I'm probably not qualified to give advice as I have a lab of the same age who is a fully-fledged member of the Barmy Army, but one piece of wisdom I have heard that helps me a lot is: don't set your dog up to fail. In other words, if you know the situation is one in which they are not yet ready to behave well in, don't put them in it. That's not to say keep your dog away from training opportunities or to give up; more that it's best to introduce things gradually, and if it's too much then take a step back. So I guess I am suggesting the opposite of flooding here, but maybe try getting him to settle for 2mins at a time, then 3mins, etc etc? Also, it's a pretty big ask for a 15 month old lab to calmly ignore a young excitable child who is petting him. My question is - where were the child's parents?!? Hope that's some help.
I never thought of "flooding" as you call it and the negative reactions it might be having on him. I guess I got really lucky after reading all the above advice that Dozer showed no signs and was still able to interact with large groups later in life. He was my first solo dog (Mine and nobody else) so training was all over the place but he turned out fantastic in my eyes so I must of done something right, aside from letting my brother n laws father use the "flooding" method. I've taken a different approach with Stryker. Most of all the methods I use, I found through these forums so I am grateful for that not to mention he's an awesome and fast learner. I apologize for giving such horrible advice.
@murphthesmurf you're not alone! Snowie was a boisterous puppy who could never ever do nothing. Still, at 4.5 years old he struggles doing nothing in an exciting environment. We failed to properly train the "do nothing" in fun environments because every time we took him out, it was to have fun! So it must've been confusing for him to go out and then have to lie quietly -- and he has an extremely loud bark, so it was embarrassing when he would bark at us when seated at a café. Our techniques to prevent this is to ensure he's had a lot of exercise before being asked to do nothing -- perhaps not the ideal thing, ideally he should be able to do nothing when asked at any time. We also take lots of chew things (his favourite bones, etc) so that he is occupied. And if he shows any fidgeting, I take him for a quick stroll around to burn off some energy. I love asking Snowie for kisses -- when I say "Give me a kiss" he lifts up his nose and gives me a very tiny, gentle lick on my chin (or lips I must confess!). But if he's over-excited and his face is near mine, he will knock his open mouth into my face and his teeth are HARD and can hurt. I know the look now so I am quick to avoid his open mouth. Your pup might have been doing something similar and not intended to hurt at all. I also read an interesting article about how dogs want to look into people's eyes, hence why they jump up towards the face.
There's no need to apologise (sorry, British spelling, it just looks weird with a "zed" - not a "zee", a "zed" ), we're all learning and we've all done things that we wouldn't necessarily do the same way again. It's good that you brought it up as a method so it could be discussed and other people could benefit from understanding what the implications are.
Hi again and thanks for all the advice. I am feeling much more positive and also a little embarrassed about feeling so stressed on Sunday! The stupid thing is that as MF suggested, when we go to our regular outdoor cafe on a sat/sun, he has a good 30 minute off lead run before hand and we still need to take a bone/something to chew whilst we have our coffee/ice creams - so why I didnt think of this is beyond me and definitely my fault, not his. I have been putting him on his lead at each meal time now. Plus before we go out for a walk Im putting my foot on it just for a minutes settle before we go - and then when out, just doing a couple of settles after a run too - he is doing really well so faith restored and absolutely agree about where were this childs parents! they were miles away, their son had been bothering us all for ages (thank fully they didnt notice the said headbutt) but at least it got him to go back to them! Definitely a cas eof way too much for Murphy, plus not allowed off lead to burn off some energy and definitely lesson learnt! Thanks again for all the input!
