I imagine you - training dogs - as being clear, consistent, and determined (to prevent self rewarding). You might imagine your confident tone is part of it. But really, it's possible to train a dog to respond to a high pitch, silly, nervous sounding tone. If you did that clearly and consistently, it would work perfectly well. The only way an 'assertive' tone would work - apart from training - is if the dog perceived the tone as a threat of a punishment to come. I have read enough of your posts (over the years!) to know you are very unlikely to be doing that!
I think that a "confident tone of voice" must be easier to be consistent with, and that's why it is working - maybe?
I dunno. I always use a fairly quiet, chirpy tone of voice. I'm consistent with that and it works for me. If I'm ever frustrated and it changes (we're all human, after all), the dogs don't do what I ask, either because they don't understand the new tone, they didn't understand what I was saying even if it had been delivered in the regular tone anyway, or they haven't been trained enough to give me the response I'm after. They don't respond to a firmer tone out of fear of consequence, because they've never suffered any punishment after that tone. The most I might get is a raised eyebrow and a "why do you sound weird?" kind of expression.
I'm really struggling with tone of voice at the moment. What seems to go in and work first time is a very assertive sounding command. But to me it sounds cross! Even if I am not! I hate it, but it works better than the much softer tone I speak in and had been using! I guess it is because 'assertive' sound clear to her, but I would like to work on a clear, yet less psychopathic voice!
I found when speaking loudly it was difficult to not sound cross. I don't know what the dogs thought but my Mum, who would not wear her hearing aids and who had significant hearing loss, would often say to me, "You don't have to get mad if I can't hear you." This tended to happen in the car where I could not look at her so she could lip read while I was talking so I had to speak very loudly.
It's taken me a while to respond back on this post because I was feeling terribly down about having an "untrained" dog when I spent the first 3.5 years of Snowie's life going to dog school every Saturday, sometimes driving 1 hour to class in traffic. What does "untrained" really mean? I don't think it's fair to say a dog is untrained. Perhaps untrained in a certain aspect. But very trained in others. We definitely failed at the recall training. We never got it from the get-go. Sadly we were newbies and started at a school that was chaotic and unstructured but we did not know better. Three months later we moved to a school that appeared amazingly structured, all dogs and owners marching military style across the field, barking commands, dog would surely come out of this well trained! Took me 1.5 years to come to my senses (what poor Snowie had to endure, AND we did their special recall course -- that course should be reported for animal cruelty, you had to keep your dog on a lead for 6 weeks and DRAG him around with you if he didn't stick to your heel. *shudder*). Finally found a school that was kind and where Snowie (and me) improved in leaps and bounds. At that school we were not allowed to shout; we were to talk in a kind voice only. At the previous school I was reprimanded for not shouting out commands (I just can't, it's not me). So, at home, when we tell Snowie to go to his bed, it's never as punishment; it's said in a kind voice and simply a cue for him to go somewhere. It often amazes visitors that our dog responds to a command said so sweetly. So, it was interesting for me that Snowie did seem to respond to me being assertive in a cross tone -- and no, he was not frightened! He has never suffered a consequence that would make him fear me, and thankfully I don't think he is fearful of anyone as he's never had a bad experience in that way. Back to the recall... I reread this post http://www.thelabradorsite.com/train-a-puppy-or-dog-to-come/ and my husband and I are trying to follow the advice. I must say that we both felt rather overwhelmed when we read that a dog that has stopped recalling for 1 week might take 1 week to retrain. A dog that has stopped recalling for 6 months might take 6 months to recall. What about a dog that has not been recalling for 4.5 years????!!!!!!! We also didn't know what to do about the "poisoned" recall cue. We both use "Come" naturally. So we've decided to use "Come" and if it isn't working after some weeks, then we'll have to figure out another recall cue. We are making progress. Tiny steps. At home Snowie generally comes when called. It's when he's distracted by a greater reward out and about, that's the challenge. I would just love to have him classically conditioned to drop everything when he hears "Come". It just seems like an insurmountable task... We did laugh that perhaps we should carry a Tupperware container with us wherever we go, cos he can be in the deepest sleep, but click open the container and he's awake and ready to do whatever is required to sample the contents! And it is smaller to carry around than the fridge -- because you should see how he responds to the dairy drawer being opened!!
I have the same thing with my mom. And yes, I do believe that feeling can follow form, so if you're shouting, you start to feel annoyed. I see it with my mom's sister: she ends up being so annoyed with my mom when she's shouting so that my mom can hear her. And I feel similar, too: the feeling of annoyance creeps in when I'm behaving in an annoyed way even if I wasn't feeling annoyed to start.
But I wasn't annoyed or mad. It just seemed a louder voice sounded cross to her. It was very hard for Sis and me to have Mum saying we sounded as if we were mad at her when we weren't. But then lots of things were hard for all of us.
I'm so sorry you've felt so upset. Snowie does remind me of Moo a lot. She is very knowing and likes to do what she wants to. I had people telling Me one thing and then some else would tell me another i was too soft too hard. At one point she was only allowed out on a long line and harness. As she improved she was allowed off in areas which were safe, usually areas which had no associations with food. As she got a lot better she got more freedom but she was never trustworthy . Having her on a long line made her realise I could stop her running away and took away a lot of pressure from me. I didn't have to worry about her running away so we started to have more fun on our walks again. It worked for us and is not really what most people would do, but we had to start again. it was like starting a pup again. I could not let her get hurt. It's too dangerous with too many roads here and I was scared too loose her. I hope you can find away for you all to enjoy your walks again . A way to not feel so pressurised and upset.
Just wanted to say that I think many dogs have recall problems, if their owners are honest, but they know them well enough to know when to recall them and get them on lead before the temptation gets too much. I will walk Lilly down a path off Lead at 4pm that I wouldn't at 6am. Deer. I will let Lilly off at the beach, but if there were loads of small (non dog) children....it's on lead. Approaching the picnic area at 10amis fine, any later....caution is my watchword. I guess it's micromanaging. And for the unexpected.....that is where a magic word, or that unexpected stern shout to break attention....and the crossed fingers. I don't think you are alone. Certainly not with regards to the rollercoaster that is labradors ownership. x
Definitely not alone it'd all about risk management for me. Some dogs are worse than others. Some get better as they mature. So dogs are villains to the end and I love them all. for me its been about learning what i can do with each dog safely
well why not? If this is going to help then definitely take the Tupperware out with you. And if you've got a super amazing treat in it that will help reinforce Snowie's recall. Don't be quick to fade it out either. I still food-reward for about 94.5% of recalls, 5% gets a throw of a tennis ball and the other 0.5% get super-squeaky praise and pats & rubs.
@MF I had to fix the fabulous recall Oban learned by being off leash as soon as got him when he was about 18 months old. Sort of, I had been careful to not call him when I was sure he would not come so didn't poison my word but I did have work to do. Basically he just got so that "with me" was way further away than I thought it should be, to the point recall wouldn't have been heard by him anyway. I found North/South fetch to help with field work we were doing, it worked like a charm. Then I morphed it into a whistle recall. I can call him off of wild turkey, deer, snowmobiles and bicycles. But I do carry the reward that is strongest for him, balls. Two, and we still play North/South fetch once in a while as well, he finds it fun, so do I and it reinforces the recall as I cannot predict when we will encounter turkeys and deer in particular. So I don't find it dismaying that treats would have to be carried either. I do carry treats too.
Ah, okay, I understand now. Sometimes when trying to project one's voice, that extra effort -- on my part at least -- is unintentionally accompanied by a cross-sounding tone. However, I don't think my mom perceives it that way -- I'll ask her next time. She came over to us one evening with her iPad, had downloaded an alarm app with super-strength alarm signals, wanted an alarm that would wake her up in the mornings. She sat with her back to my husband (not wearing her hearing aid) while he played each alarm tone and she said if it was loud enough or not. He played the "World War III" alarm tone. No, she couldn't hear it! When he played the police sirens alarm tone she said: That was soothing. It was hilarious! At least she could see the humour in it cos I know losing her hearing is very upsetting for her.
Thank you for your kind words and for sharing your experience. Snowie is not trustworthy if there is a sniff of food around... which is most places, particularly in my area because we are surrounded by so many building sites (lovely old houses being converted into blocks of flats -- urgh!) and the workers seem to think nothing of tossing out their lunch remains into the gutters, which often include chicken bones and bits of bread. When he was younger and at dog school and we were training using a long lead, he got his legs twisted in the lead and limped immediately. So I have always been afraid of a long line. Also, I don't think I'll have much control over him: he is unbelievably strong, and if I'm to attach it to a regular harness, I can forget about stopping him (having visions of skiing on my bum as he races across the stony paths!). So my only option -- I think -- of keeping him safe is to walk where there are no cars (mountain, forest) or keep him on a leash when we walk on the pavement. And of course keeping up the recall training!!!
That is reassuring in an odd way, that other people have recall problems -- I should be happy when no-one has recall problems! As for when to walk, yes I do similar! There's one place I can only walk in drenching rain otherwise people tend to lie there on the grass and you can be sure that Snowie will sniff out their food packages and help himself. We do have the magic word, but I think it, too, has become poisoned. The word is "butter". We also say: Do you want a treat? Gets his attention most times. But again... overused and not of use in situations that are more rewarding. My aunt had her magic word for calling in her choc Lab, Tessa, at night time: Biscuit! Her neighbours thought the dog's name was Biscuit!
Please can you explain to me the North/South. I did Google it and came upon your posts elsewhere, but I'm still not exactly sure how I morph it into recall. I would so appreciate it if you wouldn't mind spelling it out for me, please!
@MF I just googled myself and found two places where I wrote about this before. Assuming you found them too I guess the first thing is, will Snowie go like mad after a ball you throw? That's the basis of it. What the North/South did, by him going past me to get the second ball, was finally make it click in his head that coming back to me was the key to getting a second ball thrown. Then he seemed to realize I was the key to him getting ANY ball thrown. When I morphed it into the whistle recall I started with him a distance from me, waited till he looked up (he does check in with me no matter how far away he is) tweeted three times and I threw the ball directly behind me in a line from him to me. The first couple of times I waited till he was looking at me first so I could tweet and thrown at the same time. He seemed to understand almost instantly that again, coming to me when called got the ball thrown. I think it helped for us that my neighbour's back 10 acres had a dirt air strip, abandonned but still mowed, and there was an obvious straight line that I stood in the middle of. If you found the gundog site where I asked about this one person suggests standing at the corner of a 90 degree fence so the dog has to run by you as well. Does that help?
Thanks @Snowshoe that does help! Hmmm as you might have seen in other posts, Snowie is not allowed to retrieve a ball because of his slipped disc. He is allowed to play with a ball, but at a very slow pace, like at walking speed!! That's not going to help us train him to come to us at speed!! Also, interestingly, since stopping ball retrieves in the park -- where he used to absolutely love racing after the ball and leaping up into the air to catch the ball midair, and then landing with a thud (heart stopping, waiting to hear ligaments snap) -- he's (mostly) stopped chasing other dogs' balls, too. I shall try to find myself a safe space to practice with him, where he can't go too crazy with jolted stops (that's the part that is bad for him, not the running). Nevertheless I'm really looking forward to trying this out!
