Stanley is driving us up the wall at the minute! He approx 6 and a half months now and he's still biting! He has these mad moments where he lunges at us and he's still doing the temper biting when he's not getting his own way. I really thought he would have grown out of the biting by now and it's getting me really down at the minute. Lead walks are impossible because he starts going mental a few times on the walk. Jumping up, biting the lead, biting us, trying to play tug with our clothes. Always dread taking him now and with the nights getting dark his last walk has to be a lead walk as I don't want to get murdered in a pitch black field. He refuses to settle down and all night is spent trying to get him to sit nicely in his bed. He gets a rawhide and that keeps him quiet, but once he's had enough the devil returns. He can sit on the couch/floor/in his bed - wherever he wants. But he's more interested in chewing things he shouldn't. So I feel as though I never get any time to relax. Counter surfing is at an all time high, there are constant muddy paws on my worktop. And this morning he chewed a hole in his new bed when I was trying to get ready for work. I just feel as though he's running rings around us and there's no consequence for him. I've tried telling him off but it doesn't work anyway, so it's pointless. Positive reinforcement sometimes feels like you're rewarding the bad behaviour - like luring him away from his bed with a treat this morning. He got to chew his bed and then he got a treat for his efforts. If I just tell him to stop it he bites me! I'm going to speak with his trainers on Monday, I think maybe some one on one sessions could be a big help to us. Even if we could just stop the biting I'd feel a lot more positive.
Ho Hum. Teenage Labrador Blues. Always say it....pick your battles, work on one thing at a time, tick it off the list, and move on to the next. In the meantime, manage the puppy. Put him in a crate. I have a big crate in the TV room, and Betsy gets to be out of her crate in the evening. If she settles down, she stays out. If I have to get up twice, the third time it's to put her in her crate. She is slowly getting more reliable at settling down. The little darlings do not need to be free to run riot in the evenings. They just learn bad habits and it's very annoying. Luring him away from his bed that he is chewing with a treat is not positive reinforcement training. It's management via food, and that's a bit hopeless. Don't blame a training method, and reach for punishment, just because you haven't trained him to come away from something he is chewing.
Sorry, I probably didn't explain that very well. I didn't mean treat under his nose luring away. He's got a good recall, so I just call him away and when he comes he gets a treat. He always comes because a treat is more important to Stanley than anything, which is good really. Is that not positive reinforcement? Because if not then I'm really stuck
It is, but that's not even remotely what you said previously. You said: (My emphasis added). I don't understand why you think giving him a treat (that he has NOT seen in advance) is rewarding bad behaviour if he successfully recalls when you ask?
Now I'm really confused! Is he not supposed to know there's treats? Like on a walk for example, I carry his treat bag in my hand. So he knows they're there and he gets one when he comes back when called. Is that wrong? At our training class, before each exercise they say "show them the sweeties". So they know what good behaviour will give them. I think I feel like it's rewarding bad behaviour because for example, if he jumps on the counter I ignore him, when he gets down I say good and give him a treat. If he stays down he gets a good and another treat. If he jumps back up I just wait for the paws on the ground again and he gets a good and a treat. So it's win/win for him. He jumps up, he gets a treat, he doesn't he gets a treat.
Gosh I feel your pain! Benson used to be an awful chewer, I still wouldn't trust him. It really got bad around 7 months old. We had Benson crate trained from day 1, him which was good, although, I rather he was distracted than hyper, which was worse in the mornings. I used to give some of his breakfast in a kong wobbler, to keep him occupied. The other thing I would do is give him a short 5 min training session, followed by a chew, then settled him in his crate. At that age, I found mental stimulation the best exercise, lots of physical exercise just gave me a fit, hyper dog! We did a lot of adolescent classes with Benson too, which really helped. Basically group classes in the real world, so meet and greats can be carefully managed. They don't have to be specifically adolescent classes, there are lots of really interesting events that trainers hold, that we also enjoy, from scent work, puppy agility, gundog classes, clicker groups, etc...just make sure you find a good positive trainer.
Er, I think that's completely wrong, in my honest opinion! When you're teaching a brand new behaviour (or starting again with a behaviour that exists at home but you are starting to proof elsewhere), you may use a treat in your hand to lure, but almost immediately - within a few reps - you start faking the treat, and giving it from the other hand, so the dog learns that, even when he can't see a treat, he still gets rewarded. If your dog is shown the treats before he is asked to do something, then it's bribery, not training. Your dog should learn to do what you ask even if he thinks you have no treats. That treat can then appear magically from a pot on a shelf or whatever.
So, with things like this, it's very easy to build a behaviour chain that you're not after. Dog jumps up, you tell him off, he gets a treat. But he quickly learns that that's the route to a treat. Jump up, get down, treat, yay! The way to address this isn't to stop giving him treats for doing the thing you've asked him, but rather to reinforce him when he's doing what you want. Think about it like this. He puts his paws on the work surface, you tell him to get off and he gets a treat. When he doesn't put his paws on the work surface to start with, he doesn't get a treat, nor the chance to earn one. What's he going to choose to do? So, whenever he's in the kitchen and not putting his feet on the work surface, you need to reward him for this. You can then start ignoring the behaviour of him putting his feet on the work surface (as long as there's nothing for him to get up there) and just continue to reinforce having his paws on the ground. In general, if you have a repetitive undesirable behaviour, it's easier to train an incompatible behaviour than it is to try to "train out" the thing you don't like.
Thanks @snowbunny. I defs think we're going to have to go back a few steps and take a behaviour at a time. I'm really going to focus on training with him this weekend. Going to speak to the trainers where we go as well as it sounds as though I've gotten the wrong end of the stick somewhere. I'm going to re-read the happy puppy book and really get my head in the game with him. He's a good lad, just so clever. I think it's me & OH who need the training
Always the way! Don't beat yourself up, you're learning loads and not afraid to ask questions, which is great
I'd ditch that training class. There are lots of articles on the main site that explain how to train your dog using food.
As for your walks, how do you deal with his lunging and biting? I'd be tempted to stand on his lead and wait for it to pass. Don't move forwards, don't look at him, nothing, until he's calm. As soon as he stops for a fraction of a second, say "good boy, let's go!" and start again. Maybe you could do with engaging him a bit more on walks, too, especially when on lead. It's really easy for lead walks to turn into trudges for both of you, so maybe he's a bit bored and trying to get you to play? A nice little engagement game is tossing a treat away from you. Click when he looks back at you, then toss a treat the other way (obviously not far if he's on a lead!). He should start snapping back to you as soon as he's had the treat. You can then ask for little easy behaviours, but make them into a game. I play a game, "ready, steady" with my two, where I say, "Reaaaaaaadddddddyyyyyy...... steeeeeaaaaaaaaaaddddddyyyyyy......." then "sit!" or "touch!" or "floor!" or "heel!" or "front!" .... you get the idea. They love it Another idea is varied walking to heel. Change your pace, change your direction a lot, walk round and round in circles, zig-zag, about turns, walk backwards... just keep him guessing and a high rate of reward and energy. The more fun you can be, the less he's likely to be a nuisance.
I normally just try and stand still and when I get his attention do basic simple training, sits, paws, lie down etc until he seems to calm down then we walk again. I'll try your suggestion though, thanks. He's getting quite strong now so I think standing on the lead will be better. Yeah I'm probably not that fun, I can't imagine trudging along next to me is that interesting. I do training with him, and he tends to walk nicely on a loose lead (apart from the mad moments) but he definitely enjoys his off lead walks more where we play tug/fetch etc. That sounds like a good game that will be easy to play and should keep him engaged so I'll do that tonight. It's so embarassing when he starts just lunging at you and you can see everyone staring at the mad dog and I'm just getting more flustered waiting for him to stop.
One thing I do now that I didn't used to do, is stop my dog doing stuff like that. I used to just wait, and wait, but now I stop my new puppy when she goes to lunge (I do the step on the lead thing too, as Fiona describes). I just run my hand down the lead, and get hold of her collar - then I keep my hand and arm still and just wait (I've done an awful lot of reinforcement for a collar grab and being restrained though). I started doing this when I didn't have a harness on her, and so I wanted to stop her lunging, not just wait for her to stop and I have to say preventing her lunging does seem to mean she is stopping doing it more quickly.
Thanks @JulieT Where do you all keep your treats? In your pocket or do you have a pouch or something? I was thinking of buying a bum bag so I always have them handy or will that defeat the object as he'll know they're there after a while?
It's not really about whether or not he knows you have treats - he should always expect you to be able to provide reinforcement and it's fine that he knows treats are available (indeed some trainers deliberately always train with treats on their person so the dog never knows there is such a thing as a person who doesn't have treats). The problem comes when the treat becomes part of the cue. So if the treat (or indeed ball or anything else) has to be shown, sort of 'promised', to the dog or used in a certain way, before the dog will carry out an action. Treat bags can very easily be part of the cue, so it's good to vary how you carry your treats. Sometime a treat bag, sometimes a pocket, sometimes a bag. Take your treat bag off. If your dog won't follow cues that he will when you are wearing your treat bag, your treat bag has become part of the cue. Or if your hand is on your treat bag when you give a cue etc. which loads of people do without thinking. One exercise that we do at training is hang our treat bags on a hedge and when we want to give our dogs a treat we have a fun game running to the treat bag to get the treat. I often have my treats in pots around the house, and not on me at all. A treat is convenient, it's the easiest and quickest way to reinforce a dog. But lots of people want eventually to transition away from treats to 'life rewards' (as some people call them). These might be things like the chance of a retrieve, the lead coming off and freedom, permission to sniff interesting sniffs, free time, or even the next cue (which can become tertiary reinforcers when a dog just likes working for you). So, think of it as you never stop reinforcing good behaviour, but you should never be dependent on the dog seeing or 'being promised' something in advance, because that reinforcement becomes part of your cue, and then your cues won't work without it being present. All of this does not mean there is anything wrong with using luring to start a behaviour off, but the aim should be to move away from using a lure as fast as possible.
I have a question about moving away from luring that seems appropriate to ask here. I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread @JenBainbridge We have one particular exercise at training that I'm struggling to do without luring Ella and I'm not sure of the next step. Off lead weaving. Picture approximately 20 dogs and owners standing in a circle, about a metre apart, dogs sitting at heel. When it's your turn, you remove the lead, ask your dog to walk at heel and weave in and out of the others all the way around the circle and back to your spot. We can do this quite well on lead and our off lead heel work is quite good too. The first time we tried weaving off lead I basically treat streamed as I didn't want her self rewarding by getting to the other dogs. This worked well so I reduced the treat load after the second successful attempt but still giving her a few treats while we're walking. However, I know I'm getting this wrong but I seem to be in a rut where I'm holding the treat in my hand for a few steps (so luring her) before giving it to her and grabbing another treat to hold for the next few steps. If I don't do this she starts creeping towards the other dogs. I'm clearly doing something wrong but I just can't spot it.
If you think your on lead is pretty perfect, then you could try off lead and with her wearing a steadiness fob - a bit of cord on her collar you can pick up very quickly if she wanders off. I'd ask if I could have a bit more space between the dogs if I needed it. And fade the lure in a very structured way. So the hand holding the lure should be in your off lead cue position (usually on your left leg or hip). Work through the exercise with the lure. Then with your hand in exactly the same position, work through the exercise without the lure but with a really high rate of reinforcement. Count your rate of reinforcement. Then reduce it a little bit, and little bit more...
Thanks so much. We've worked really hard with him tonight and so far so good. While I was making tea OH kept rewarded feet on the ground and he only jumped up once. He was chewing the kitchen unit I called him away and he came trotting over. Treat was completely out of sight until bum was on the floor infront of me. We've been going over all his basic training just to ensure he can do it without bribery - he can so I feel much more positive. I got a bit panicked at first. When he wouldn't settle we popped him back Behind his babygate and he calmed down, so we let him back with us and he's sat having a snooze in his bed and we're actually watching a film The only other question I'll ask (then I'm done for the day, promise) is I know I can't lure him with a treat, but we're currently training to sit on the mat in the hope of teaching him to settle. Previously I've been luring him with a treat, which I now know is wrong - but is it ok for him to just follow my hand? Or should he not be following anything? I'm honestly so grateful - I've learned more from this forum than about £500 of dog training!
It's not wrong to start off luring him with a treat in a training session, but you have to move away from that so you don't keep doing it. There is nothing wrong with having a hand signal which could have previously been the act to throw a treat for example. My new puppy learned a hand signal to go on a mat with a lure in about 2 days when she was 8 weeks old, and that's about all I'd expect to use a lure for something like go on a mat, I think. So if you are still using a lure for go on a mat with a six month old dog, I'd set a target to fade it out in a few minutes of training now. @JenBainbridge - has your training class gone through with you how you put something on cue? Do you know the process that you go through to achieve it? I know I didn't pick this up in my first puppy class with Charlie, it became clear to me much later.
