Hello! I have a 15 month old Labrador-English Pointer cross. We adopted her at 8 months, and she had very little training before that time (and was a hyperactive crocodog snapuppy!). But we have been working really hard with her since we got her, and she is now pretty impressive in terms of obedience in the house (actually as I write this she just stole a pear from the fruit bowl...more work needed...). In the house, she is very food motivated so generally easy to train. She is also pretty easy to engage with other non-food things; she plays by herself with her ball (she kicks it and then runs after it), likes tugging with a rope toy, retrieves objects happily and enjoys nosework games. However outside it is a different matter. Any treats or toys I can offer her are ranked well below sniffing, rolling in fox poo, staring at birds, and eating cowpats in terms of reward. We are working through Total Recall but are having big problems managing her walks. I understand why it is suggested to keep the dog close on walks, and intersperse time on lead with 'training or games' in the zone of control. But what training or games can you do when nothing is more rewarding that running around sniffing or chasing rabbits? We live in the countryside, and it is impossible to walk her somewhere with no scents of rabbit, deer and pheasant. She is not at all interested in a ball or tuggy toy, might pause briefly for roast chicken but generally not. She does keep an eye on where we are and will come running past us in a big hurry if we change direction or run away, and might briefly stop for a treat, but she is way too distracted to manage any sort of training, even just offering a sit is too much for her as she is too desperate to get back to running after whatever sniff she was chasing. I did buy a training line, but we live in rough countryside and I can't see how it won't get immediately tangled So (sorry for the long essay), my question is what can i do to keep her close on walks and ensure that I am the most exciting source of rewards? I would love to get into some gundog style training but when she can run around by herself finding scents of real animals, why would she play games with me searching for dummies etc? She is very high energy and so she does need a good run to not be manic in the house - so keeping her on the lead to stop her access to animal scents would be a bit of a disaster when there is no other way of running her. If only she was interested in me throwing a ball for her, it would solve the problem as it would be a rewarding source of exercise under my control. But unfortunately not! Any advice would be greatly appreciated (or even to hear from others with similar problems)!
Hello there I know this isn't what you are going to want to hear....but you can't let a dog that can't pay attention to you such that sitting or taking a treat is impossible continue to freely hunt scents of rabbit, deer, pheasant. Well, not if you ever want to get any control over her. So you have to have her on a lead or line in that kind of environment, and you have got to balance any freedom she gets with her ability to pay attention to you. So at first, all you might do is walk up and down a smelly, scent filled field on lead. Or you might just sit down by the gate with your dog on lead and wait....and wait...and in the meantime continue her training in an enclosed, safe areas where you can get her attention. Training a recall is only part of it (a very necessary part, but only part of it). The other parts are your dog learning to pay attention to you, and being engaged and focussed on you when off lead - and a dog can't learn to do that if she is off chasing scent. It isn't about a competition between wildlife and you with toys (you would always lose that) it's about a process of the dog learning to focus on you, and you have to start that in less distracting places. Dogs that go Gundog training are not given the free choice to run around by themselves finding scents of real animals or playing with dummies. They don't get to play with dummies until they can concentrate, and they are not given the choice to go off and hunt on their own at all. A few lessons with a Gundog trainer might be perfect for you. Why don't you give it a try? By the way, if you want to train without aversives (punishment) then choose your Gundog trainer carefully. There are different styles from very traditional to very positive.
I have exactly the same problem with Lottie (now 2). I was also reluctant to use a training line because most of our walks are in wooded areas and it's not easy to manage in that sort of environment. However I had the added incentive of preventing Lottie from eating dog poo as this disagrees with her ultra-sensitive stomach , so I did use one. I can't remember exactly how long I used it (a few months?) and I didn't have to use it all the time, but it got to the point where I could walk her off lead without too many problems. However, she never reached the point where she wouldn't chase a rabbit/squirrel/deer if she saw one and in the past few weeks she's started running off again whenever she feels like it, so today I'm going to dust off the training line and start using it again . I have a rubber-coated one (Heim Biothane), which is waterproof and has no hand loop so it doesn't get caught up and tangled so much as other ones. I've also just bought a video by Emily Larlham (kikopup) called Harnessing the hunter (it's video on demand so you watch it on your computer). I wish I'd got this 2 years ago! Lots of training tips, games to play, examples to watch and generally ways to manage a dog that finds real and imaginary prey much more exciting than you! Good luck
Hi Lara and welcome to the forum. I agree with everything that Julie has said. You need to rein her in now and not let her keep self-rewarding. It's a process to make her concentrate on you outside. Just as you have to proof everything else, you have to do that, so starting somewhere she's really familiar is important; either just outside your gate, or a 5m section you've walked up and down (and up and down and up and down) on lead. Keep her on a longish lead and play the simplest of focus games. Drop a treat on the floor by your feet. When she looks at you for another, click and drop another treat. So she always has to consciously look back up at you. Once she has the hang of this, and still on lead, start tossing the treats a tiny distance away - just a foot or two - so that once she's has it, she has to physically turn back to you. You can practice this in your garden first, so she learns the game somewhere "boring". If you're in a safe place like that, she probably won't need to be on lead and you can start tossing the treats farther, sooner. But, once out of your garden, keep it very easy for her at first. Then you can gradually build up the distance and/or distraction. Whenever she's obsessed by a smell, play the game. Get your distance from the smell and then, once you've played a few repetitions so she's in the swing of it, you can start tossing the treat towards the smell. If she gets distracted by the smell, you're too close, so move back. You want to be at a distance that she can successfully turn to you away from the distraction, and then, ever so gradually, start tossing the treat closer to it. You're teaching her to turn away from distractions and towards you. You can play this same game wherever you have any type of distraction. Just make sure she's at a distance that she can succeed. I've not really used a long line myself much. They scare me a bit! However, I took Shadow out on one the other day specifically to play these focus games and it worked well. Where I messed up and he got too distracted by a smell, I was able to prevent him from self-rewarding. I didn't let the line drag (it's a fabric one, and would have been a nightmare) but kept coiling and uncoiling it in my hands, so he only had the amount of slack that he'd normally have with a lead. It was a right old palarva, if I'm honest, and I wouldn't be keen to use it regularly. But it did its job in that scenario. I believe the biothane ones are much lighter and less prone for getting caught on things. I think you have to be very careful that the dog isn't ever allowed to get enough speed that it could hurt you, or her, if it gets wrapped around a limb or finger. And, always attached to a harness, never on a collar. I reckon gundog training would be great to focus both your minds, and to get her used to working around distractions. Depending on where you are, it may mean travelling a little way if you want a positive reinforcement trainer, but that's OK. Many people on here who take gundog classes don't go weekly, anyway, so travelling a moderate distance once every now and again is doable. You go to a session (probably 1-2-1 would be useful to start) and you'll have more than enough to work on for a few weeks. Good luck and do let us know how you get on
Hi Lara, In addition to the good advice given above, you might find this article of interest: http://totallygundogs.com/spaniels-and-why-not-to-walk-them/ It refers to Spaniels in the title, but is still relevant to your dog Wishing you all the best, and do let us know how it goes. Lucy
You say she is a Pointer cross, so may inherit the Pointer side of working and Pointers are not dogs who walk beside you. The way you can manage it is to 'work her' as in getting her to quarter in front of you (many Pointers will be over 100 yards away). Best thing is to have some gundog lessons. If the Lab part is uppermost, get her interested in retrieving and in tennis ball as a reward. Gundog lessons in how to do this will help enormously.
PS There was a person with a Pointer/Lab cross on here and if I remember correctly she was known as @charlie. Perhaps the mods can find the link. Charlie was just like your dog, but with lots of training he became a well behaved boy.
Thank you all so much for your replies! Loads of helpful info here JulieT I agree that I need to stop her free access to sniffs and bunnies before this problem gets any worse. If she is on lead, she does still have a hard time focussing on me but usually can after a while. Taking her to increasingly sniffy places on the lead and rewarding her for attending to me, doing simple sits etc. is a good idea. We felt brave enough to go out this morning for the first time with the training line. We went to the least rabbitty field we have, one which she is very familiar with. The training line was a bit of a palaver but actually went better than expected – she did go to the end of the line quite a few times straining to get to a sniff, particularly at the start (me and my husband stopping to have an argument about how to correctly use the training line did not help matters ), but most of the time she came back towards us again if I leapt around excitedly. I had roast chicken with me which was the main attraction! Because of that, for a lot of the walk round the perimeter of the field she stayed quite close just trailing the line and could do some sits and short stays too. We had a few fun runs with her chasing me (well, chasing the chicken probably), and she even saw a man walking across the field and didn’t run after him It seems like everyone recommends gundog training! I looked into it a bit more, and a lot of the behaviours she can do at home (retrieving to my hand on cue, ‘leaving’ toys that are thrown past her until I tell her to get them, going finding hidden objects and bring them back etc.) seem like they might be a little bit similar to some of what she'd learn with a gundog trainer. I was initially hesitant because it seems like gundog training is done in fields, as you would expect, and I thought she would have to be able to focus on me outside before she could ever learn new stuff outside? Would a gundog trainer be happy to work with us at such a basic level just to get her to the stage where she could learn things? I was scared that we would be laughed at for ever considering that she was ready for that type of training because we didn't have her from a pup I guess we are pretty behind with some stuff. But, if we are ready for it, does anyone have any recommendations for gundog trainers in West Berkshire/Oxfordshire areas, and/or a good gundog training book to get an idea of the basics whilst we track down a trainer? Snowbunny, thanks so much for the suggestion of the ‘focus’ game – that sounds great and doable. I should also try the similar-sounding ‘look at that’ game in the Control Unleashed book that I need to get round to reading again. I’ll try it in the garden today and then take it ‘on location’! My biggest problem though is how to get her enough exercise during all this. I guess to be effective, this restriction of free running will be a long-term thing. This morning, she walked round the field on her training lead, ran a short way after me and did a few close ball-retrieves for chicken. We then walked on her short lead to the river and she had a little paddle (she is scared of the river usually so this was a big step). We were out for around an hour in the end. And when we got back home it became clear that this was nowhere near enough for her to get rid of her adolescent energy! She ran about like a mad thing, dug a hole in the garden and tried to chew the coffee table, something she hasn’t done since she was last restricted to lead walks when she was spayed . So given that I can’t let her zoom about on walks, and our garden is too small to play a good game of fetch, how do I let her get her zoomies out? Once she has more focus it sounds like retrieving, quartering etc. are great options for more controlled exercise, but in the meantime…? Thanks so much for all your help! So glad I joined this forum! love Lara and Indie
Stacia, it is hard to tell which part is dominant in her – her love of sniffing the air and bolting off sounds more pointer, but it could also just be badly trained lab! Physically she is more pointer (she has a whippy tail) and she does point at rabbit holes and at pigeons in the garden, it is pretty cute! I am working on her retrieval and she enjoys it in the house and garden, but it would never win in a competition with running about sniffing outside of the garden. I guess a gundog trainer could work out what sort of drivers work best for her! Ooh I also tracked down @charlie and got engrossed in her older posts about her pointerdor, he does sound similar to mine and it is nice to hear how well he is doing now
Thanks for the recommendation! I am going to buy that video, looks exactly what we need and I have heard good things about Kikopup but never got round to taking a look.
I can recommend Clicker Gundog by Helen Phillips. If you clicker train already, you can go straight into this, otherwise you should probably get the book that precedes it, Clicker Training - the Perfect Foundation by Kay Laurence. That one comes with a DVD which is very helpful for showing you how to effectively use the clicker. There are also the books written by Pippa for The Gundog Club. These can be found here: http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/?page_id=315. Keep in mind that they were written a long time ago now, so some of the methods might be altered slightly to come more into line with modern methods (it mentions talking in a stern tone of voice, for example). Pippa's website, totallygundogs.com also has a wealth of information on it. And you may be interested to join the Positive Gundogs Facebook group. Here's a link with more information about the criteria for joining: http://totallygundogs.com/the-positive-gundogs-group/ As for tiring her out, I know it's easy to think that she needs lots of physical exercise to do this, but the fact is that mental stimulation will wear her out far more. You just need to get the tools yourself (through training) that will enable you to make her think more and more, giving her increasingly complex tasks to perform and working her brain. I don't know any trainers in your area, but I travel to Evesham - from Andorra! - for my training, so I have a bit of a distorted view on how far is reasonable to ask people to travel to find a good trainer I think it's one of those things, though - if you're looking for a force-free gundog trainer, you're extremely lucky if you have one on your doorstep. Most people will travel a fair way to get the right training. It's generally not something you'll need to do weekly - one session will set you up with enough tasks to last you several weeks, if not longer. Best of luck!
I travel to the Gundog Trust trainer in Evesham too - from London. I also go to one in Surrey. I don't have a dog that hunts wildlife (er....actually, my new puppy does!) but his ability to get distracted and leg it had to be seen to be believed when he was younger (and even now at times.... ). I went to several Gundog trainers seeking the right one, and in the end found what I was looking for, and yes, I got help with focus and engagement. Not everyone really was able to help me though, or wanted to - some Gundog trainers definitely just wanted to teach the sport of Gundog work and didn't really want to help me with the basics. So you have to pick your trainer, and if the first one doesn't suit, don't give up. Try another. Even though I found the right Gundog trainer in the end, I still went to pet dog classes. I still do. Engagement and focus, recall, heel work, controlled hunting, and so on are far from unique to Gundog work. I'm usually disappointed in pet dog training classes though, I often find that the expectations on the dogs are very low, and the massive difference between a pet dog class and a Gundog class is that Gundog trainers expect to use retrieves, hunting and access to the environment as reinforcers. For me this makes what I learn massively more practical and useful. Right now, with my new puppy, I'm attending a pet dog class run by a Gundog trainer - that's perfect. Your dog will come to no harm not 'free running' for a good few months. Providing you are active with your dog - try power walking on lead - and also give her lots of 'things to do', you can build her fitness up later, after you have solved your training issues. Dogs like to free run, but it is not essential to keep a dog physically and mentally healthy. I know this - my older dog had cruciate injuries and I spent a total of 16 months with him on lead. I kept him reasonably fit, and mentally well entertained. Not without effort, but it can be done.
A gundog trainer would show you what to do when out in the fields, so fear not I think it would be your answer.
Welcome Lara and Indie from Hattie 9 years and our rescue boy Charlie 5 years. Glad you found my story interesting although it reads like something from a horror movie We rescued Charlie who is a Labrador x GSP at 9 months, a difficult age so we found out, he had zero recall and was an absconder which were weren't told by the rescue centre, so on the advise of knowledgeable dog owners on this forum we bought a long training line, a harness, shed loads of juicy chicken, a whistle and Pippa's Total Recall book at set to work. It wasn't easy or quick, Charlie remained on a training line for 3 years whilst we trained every single day on his recall, proofing it in different locations etc. As we live in a rural location I was lucky enough to have use of a neighbours paddock for a year so I worked on very hard on his recall, stop whistle and having fun. Charlie is not in the least interested in games, balls and sometimes food when we are on walks so I do understand how you feel and not everyone gets that but it's a fact, I have tried absolutely everything but no luck during the 5 years we have had Charlie. I read a lot about people not being able or wanting to use a training line, we had no choice so just figured it out and used it without too much of a problem and we used it in all rural areas, woods, long grass etc. Please do use a harness and not a collar for the sake of your safety and Indie's. I think the thing to remember and this took us sometime to get to grips with is to treat Indie as a Pointer and not a Labrador because they are completely different, as Stacia said they don't tend to stay with you like most Labradors they are far ranging dogs and that takes a lot of getting used to if you haven't had this type of dog before which we haven't. As @snowbunny said mental stimulation is just as important, I clicker train Charlie and have taught him all sorts of things, some useful, some not but it's fun, I taught delivery to hand of balls and dummies, he collects the post, takes the washing out of the machine, gets my keys. I trained him to have his nails clipped which he now only has to see the clippers my footstool and he's there tail wagging offering his paws, having his ears cleaned and his teeth brushed and much more. I am currently training "Look at that" which is going really well too. Also about 6 months ago I started doing scentwork with him, @JulieT started a thread on how to get started and to progress. Charlie absolutely loves this and can scent out the tiniest treat or toy in a very large area, he is progressing all the time. None of this helps us on our walks but it helps him to use his brain, keeps him happy and entertained and we enjoy doing these things together You are also rural is there any chance of using a fenced in field or paddock to help with Indie's training and off lead exercise? this was invaluable to me as we don't have any other non distracting areas to walk in either which does make training extremely difficult also it allowed Charlie to burn off some of that excessive energy which enabled him to concentrate, a little bit! Thank you @Stacia for saying Charlie is a "well behaved" boy, I think that could be stretching it just a little Touching on Gun Dog Trainers, we went to 2 different ones and found their "techniques" totally unacceptable, we found a third which was a heck of a drive but she kept changing her mind on a weekly basis about how to train Charlie as I don't believe she really knew so it was a waste of money so unfortunately this put me right off trainers but if you can find a positive trainer - great go for it, I never have in our neck of the woods. We were told when Charlie was a year old by these "trainers" that he would NEVER be an off lead dog, I wouldn't accept that and we worked very hard and Charlie enjoys off lead walks every day, he is by no means a 'velco' dog but he is 100% better than he was so we manage his behaviour because he understand him. He has good verbal and whistle recall, comes back when he sees people to have his lead put on without being asked which is great because he is a people dog through and through so that's pretty hard for him. I would also say just to pick one or two things you really want to train and concentrate on those, it's so easy to become overwhelmed with training and not really achieve anything. I found that hard as I was so anxious to get everything sorted but it really does take years and we never stop training our dogs so just take your time there's really no hurry. Don't give up, keep going and you will get there and everyone is here to help you and Indie. It can be done Helen xxx
I was thinking about you today, @Lara - most of the people at Gundog class I went to had HPRs and spaniels. There is a lovely pointer that often goes (not there today) and he has to be on a line, his owner has made great strides though, but I'd say that even among people regularly attending Gundog classes there was a lot of talk of long lines, and struggling with controlled hunting. I'd say that people with these types of dog deal with these problems (or learn to deal with them) as a matter of routine really. I'm not saying it's easy if you haven't done it before, but lots and lots of people are learning the right techniques and working through the issues. I'm sure there are useful techniques you could learn through Gundog training. Are you on Facebook? If so, you might check out three groups: The Gundog Club graded training scheme, Positive Gundogs, and Clicker Gundog. I'm sure you'll find just stacks of people facing the same thing as you. Hope you find it helpful and gets lots of tips.
Thanks JulieT that is really reassuring. I sent a few emails to some gundog trainers just to see if they would be happy with seeing us at the level we are at - and if they are I will delve a bit deeper into their methods etc. to make sure they sound positive only. The facebook groups look great - I'll go on a group-joining spree methinks! I'm also looking into a pet dog obedience class too as you suggested - I would think Indie has already learned most of the behaviours they would teach, but I think it will be invaluable to relearn to do those behaviours with other dogs and people around because she is a real beginner in that respect! And I think you are right, the world will not end if she doesn't get to free run for a while (although my square coffee table might end up round if she carries on chewing the corners!). She had another paddle in the river this morning after her 'keeping close' training, which is half scary and half thrilling for her. This ended up in the zoomies on the river bank but she thankfully remained very focussed on us, so I could turn it into her chasing me and jumping into the river for a stick before I put her back on her short lead. When we got back, she put herself straight to bed and slept for four hours! Then my husband took her for a jog on her short lead this evening and she is now asleep again. So I think we just need to be a bit more creative about tiring her out
Aw thanks Helen! Yeah, reading your posts made me feel so relieved that someone else had had similar problems and survived! I definitely get anxious trying to work out all the things we need to work on with her - we are clicker training and she has learned so many things, but her behaviour in the house has now way exceeded her behaviour out the house and so I think it is high time I shifted my focus to outdoors training and relaxed a bit inside. If I try to do everything, my head will explode! Charlie certainly does sound like a well-behaved boy! To help you with the washing is impressive - if I forget to say 'leave it', Indie 'helps' by kindly removing only the socks from the washing machine and taking them to the garden to chew. He does sound quite similar to Indie in some ways - we rehomed her at 9 months too, although she came from a family rather than a rescue centre. They couldn't cope with her anymore as they hadn't given her any training and suddenly she wasn't a cute little puppy anymore but a jumping, snapping teenager. Her main problem wasn't absconding like Charlie (although she had no recall), but a complete lack of self-control and unable to direct her energy. I still think back to our first few weeks with her - she jumped up at us, scratched us, bit at our arms, played tug with our clothes... I spent my time going into the kitchen, getting jumped on, me backing out of kitchen with Indie attached to my clothes with her claws. She earned her name 'crocodog' and I used to eat my lunch crying sitting on the stairs. Despite how it sounds, it was never 'aggressive' - just so excited that she didn't know what to do. Thank god those days are gone! Interesting point about treating her as a pointer rather than a lab. It makes a lot of sense with her behaviour! I was never sure how I should think of her regarding her breed but perhaps pointer wins out. And yes a secure paddock would be amazing for her training - unfortunately I haven't found one yet I will keep searching. We do some nosework with her too and love it - I taught her it when she was spayed and we couldn't take her for walks. Her searching for the scent with the cone on her head was a sight to behold! We use the scent that they use in the first stage of nosework competitions - its an essential oil called sweet birch, it smells like Deep Heat. I put a drop on two cotton buds in a small tin with holes in, and then I can hide it in the house or garden. I have an identical tin with no scent in it as a lure to make sure she is searching scent and not just alerting to finding a tin I love the noisy sniff-sniffs she does when I tell her 'go find' anyway thanks so much for your support
have a look here for secure fields, there is also a facebook page. Some national trusts have a small secure dog walking area too. Good luck! http://www.dogwalkingfields.co.uk/ https://www.facebook.com/dogwalkingfields/
Thanks! I hadnt come across this site, it's great. The closest one is about 40 mins drive so not for daily walks, but a weekly session there would be great! Perhaps I can persuade someone else with a dog to join me a few times to start practicing recall away from dogs without the worry of them both taking off after rabbits! We are newish to our area and to dog-ownership so I need to make some friends first
