This will likely be long but I want to provide as much information as possible. I have an 80 pound, 13 month old lab/mastiff puppy named Winnie. I adopted Winnie five months ago. Why I thought it was a good idea to adopt a dog in adolescence is beyond me. Well, unbeknownst to me - Winnie is reactive. Her reactivity ranges depending on the day - but it mainly occurs when she's on a leash or behind a barrier. Let me be clear - she's not aggressive at all. Her current trainer thinks that it's excited reactivity and frustration from restraints. She wiggles, jumps, lunges, retreats, bows, and barks. Due to Winnie's size, her reactivity can be dangerous. She's bloodied my grandmothers arm twice from slapping with her enormous mastiff paws - once unleashed and once leashed. My grandmother is a huge trigger for Winnie. Unfortunately, we don't see her enough to do any productive counter conditioning but it makes the visits we do have very stressful. We've been in training pretty much since I got her. I have an older Ridgeback mix that behaves beautifully - so I thought I could train the puppy. I quickly realized I was way in over my head. I hired a trainer that was CPDT-KA and she introduced me to clicker training and LAT exercises. She said Winnie was fear reactive and likely experienced trauma early in life (I didn't agree and neither does her current trainer. But she was the expert). She didn't believe in ever pushing Winnie past threshold and encouraged me not to. The clicker training helped with basic obedience but we were still dealing with reactivity. So we switched trainers. Winnie has taken a Reactive Rover group class and made some progress. We've had three (soon to be four) trainers - all based on positive reinforcement. She starts a Manners I group class next week. She knows most of the material but I want her to be around leashed dogs in close proximity. So yeah, we've done lots of R+ training. It's not working. Ok, it IS working on some levels. Winnie is better but not where I would expect a puppy in 5 months of training to be. She broke her crate yesterday reacting to my grandmother. That doesn't say "I've been in training for five months". That says - you need to try something else. I feel like all she's learned to do is to jump through hoops for a treat but it hasn't shaped her overall behavior. I also feel like reacting is more fun to her than a treat because she knows she has more treats coming later on. So I'm looking for advice from those who have been in this situation or other options in training. Right now I'm going through pounds of treats a week, constantly wearing a treat bag so I can reward positive behavior, and walking her with a spoon of peanut butter in my pocket. It's stressful to feel like you have to constantly be in trainer mode and not see results. Re-homing Winnie has been thought about many times. But each time I get pushed to that point something inside of me wants to pick up and keep fighting. She has many beautiful qualities - she's sweet, happy, and loves everyone. And if we can make it through this I think she'll be a great dog. But some days I'm not sure we're going to make it. Thanks for any suggestions, encouragement, or advice you may have.
For those interested I video'd Winnie's reaction to my grandma. I pushed her past threshold so I could show others. This is what her typical reactivity looks like but it took her much longer to start offering sits and downs with my grandma. Normally it takes her a minute or less but this took 3-4 minutes. She's been like this to my grandma since the very first day I got her. No idea why. http://sendvid.com/4vhkfdb0?secret=b0472b19-cda9-40ba-a34e-33eec60ac8f5
Well if that's reactive then my dog is too. Maybe I did not see enough video, I only saw a few seconds and you say "this took 3-4 minutes." I am not sure if you mean the video is that long. Oban is always thrilled to meet our neighbour across the street, he just loves her. Unlike your Grandma, who I see is looking away from Winnie, as is good in this situation, Oban's friend encourages him. It still takes me a while to get him to calm down. I am not a fan of the current buzz word "reactive." If dogs did not react the species would die out. Generally, I think, it is used to mean an undesirable reaction like pronounced fear and evasion, or fear and defense or fear and pre-emptive aggression. From the short bit of video I see Winnie's reaaction seems to be overwhelming joy. Joy and happiness are good, it's how they are displayed that might be a problem and Winnie is big and could hurt someone. My "suggestions, encouragement, or advice" would be just to keep up with ordinary old obedience training so you can get a sit and stay when you want them.
Sending sympathy as you do sound as though you're at the end of your tether. You've obviously worked hard and it's great that you've used reward-based methods. I would encourage you to keep going with these methods as you will succeed. To me, from the short video, Winnie seems very excited but not aggressive in any way. While you're training, I'd suggest you think of management strategies for times when you know Winnie will go over the top. I know you say that Winnie broke out of her crate, so if you know your grandmother is due to visit, you could give Winnie plenty of exercise, games etc, before she arrives and then settle her in her crate with a filled Kong or big rawhide bone, before your grandmother gets there. (Perhaps she'd text you when she's 5minutes away.) For training, keep going with taking Winnie close, but not too close, to what she finds exciting, and reward a look at you. I'd also suggest more games with you to teach impulse control - like tug, where it's very exciting, but then there's a leave-it cue and she has to wait for a take-it cue for the game to restart. Perhaps you could find a club that does agility, fly ball or gundog training. I suggest this because the more Winnie focuses on you being the source of fun, as well as food, the less excited she'll be by other people. Why not set a target of say 6 months, by which time she'll be past the real puppy stage, train and play hard during that time and review things at the end. Good luck.
I told my mom (a psychologist) last night - Winnie has no consequences. And that bothers me. I'm a therapist and modify behaviors in children. I completely understand the power of positive reinforcement. I use it daily. But my kids have consequences to extinguish unfavorable behaviors. Winnie doesn't have consequences because I'm constantly ignoring or redirecting from unfavorable behaviors and I don't see that working. I put her video on another dog message board and posters said "your dog is an obnoxious disrespectful jackass". And she is obnoxious and I don't know how to fix her. And I feel like we haven't bonded because I'm constantly the trainer. Constantly taking things away, ruining fun, and on my toes. We rarely have down time to just be.
From that video she just looks like an excitable young lab. My dog would be the same if someone who he knew and loved was stood in front of him. He doesn't bark but he jumps up and wriggles cos he's so excitable. I just try and redirect his attention back to me until he's calmed down. Some days it's trying, but most people understand he's just a pup. And my puppy is certainly not an obnoxious jackass! We spend a lot of time trying to train Stanley to settle, some days he's good as gold, other days he's a terror. It literally feels as though we're in the film Marley & me. I personally wouldn't start looking for punishments, puppies are not children and you can't think of them the same. So I'll continue with my pocket full of treats and my positive voice (through gritted teeth sometimes) and keep hoping he gets better.
She should have consequences; those that are directly associated to her actions. If she behaves in an inappropriate way (being boisterous), she doesn't get to do what she wants (meet Grandma). If she acts appropriately (4 feet on the ground), she does. If she can't act appropriately, she is too close to her trigger and she needs to be given distance. I know you took the video specifically to show the behaviour, but in it, you're not doing anything to help her succeed. You need to move her far enough away from Grandma that she can be calm. Once she's calm, Grandma can take a step forwards. If the excitement rises, Grandma steps back again. This is a consequence - it is negative punishment. If Grandma approaches because she's calm, this is also a consequence - positive reinforcement. Dogs don't understand consequences in the same way as children - you can't explain to them - so you have to be very clear. This is why positive punishment is so often a bad idea; it can't be associated with the dog's actions in a precise enough manner, and you end up with behavioural fallout. Well, many people out there still subscribe to the out-dated dominance model and all its ridiculousness. So, ask your questions on a forum where those people reside and you'll probably get very different answers to those that are given on a forum where most of the members adhere to science-based methods. Well, don't you have fun in training? OK, there are some boring things you have to do, but training should be about generating fun, not killing it. If you approach everything as a game, rather than a chore, it makes it more fun and rewarding for both of you. I'm constantly training my two, but we all love it, because training means fun time.
I know she needs distance. We've been doing LAT for nearly five months under the direction of CPDT. I never said I was setting her up for success in the video. I pushed her threshold in order to show her default behavior. I will say that with greetings we've (trainer and I) started flooding her instead of creating distance. The trainer said its not beneficial to flood a fear reactive dog but Winnie isn't fear reactive. So the trainer stands in front of her and completely ignores her while she barks and then SHE makes the decision to sit or down. Then she gets a C/T. The reaction time and significance has decreased. And no - training isn't really that fun for me. I'm stressed. I couldn't walk her until recently because she barks and carries on so much - and she scares people and children (children are very exciting to her). Now I can walk her and when she passes a dog I stick a peanut butter spoon in her mouth until we've passed. So walking her is stressful but she's a lab puppy - she HAS to be exercised.
She seems like a normal dog to me, excited to see Grandma. I would not in a month of sundays says she 'was an obonxious, disrepectful jackass'! @snowbunny has described steps you can take which will be very helpful. How much exercise and stimulation does Winnie get, is she allowed off lead running? Once she is passed adolescence I am sure she will be a lovely dog. She just needs to learn what is acceptable behaviour, dogs don't come ready programmed Try @snowbunny's way and take it slowly.
Hmmm pot calling the kettle black...? Anyone who said that to my dog... I'd leave that forum if that's the general vibe there. Completely unhelpful.
My boy (now passed) was very reactive as an adolescent and through to about 3 years old. It lasted longer than it needed to as I had a huge learning curve. Unlike what I saw from Winnie in the video, my guy would actually act like he wanted to eat other dogs alive while he was on leash. He was completely fine off leash, by the way. I do not feel I'm up on current training methods for this type of thing, so am not going to give you any specific training advice. However, I'd like to share my experience, if only to know that there is hope. What i feel finally turned the corner for my boy was realising that I had to get his attention diverted from whatever he was reacting to BEFORE he lost his mind. I used to say that I could almost literally see his brains dribbling out his ears once he visually latched on to another dog to react to. Once the snarling and lunging started, bringing him back to sanity where he'd listen to me was nearly impossible. So the key was being hyper vigilant as to seeing (before he did) what he might react to in the environment. I got very good at recognising the types of dogs that set him off and getting him to focus on me and the positive rewards of that focus (I carried lots of fresh chicken breast with me for a long time). At the beginning this meant keeping a huge amount of space between him and what he reacted to, but with time we could get closer and closer to other dogs without the "brain dribbling effect". I would take him to dog parks and walk him around the perimeter outside the fence, then closer to the fence, the finally into the park and eventually wind through other dogs. We also did lots and lots of classes where we were having fun (he and I both loved taking classes) but still he had to be around other dogs and on leash. Throughout his life, I always remained vigilant as to what could set my dog off, but all that chicken training eventually evolved into him making eye contact with me and checking in and me giving him a look back as praise for not reacting. People who knew him only after four years old still do not believe what a terror he was in the early days as they never ever saw it (and didn't realise what his checking in behaviour was all about). I was extremely proud of how he could walk past another dog going completely ballistic and not even turn his head to look, let alone react. Also to help from going down the "this dog is driving me nuts" black hole, remember to work on "fun" parts of training where you and she both feel you are making progress and accomplishments. I remember just wanting to strangle my boy for the dog aggression thing, but taking him to doggie dancing classes, teaching him a fun new silly trick like ringing a bell with his nose or playing dead, or seeing him play so great off leash with other dogs would remind me what a cool dog he was despite his rather troublesome quirk of trying to kill other dogs while he was on leash (yes, that last bit said ironically). Again, this is not meant to say "you should do this or that" but simply that you shouldn't give up hope. My guy eventually passed his service dog cert which included having an aggressive dog approach on leash to which my boy merely wagged his little stump of a tail and smiled like a fool. The testers said they'd never seen a less reactive reaction. LOL - if they'd only seen him at a year old!
No clue why she's so excited. Grandma has never petted her because she can't get near her. Winnie was off leash when my grandma first met her and she habitually jumped over and over and swatted at her. She bloodied her arm. The second time she was on the leash and she got within striking distance and literally SHREDDED her skin. Skin was hanging off her arm. So you all look at Winnie's behavior and see excitement and I see harmful and dangerous. At this point it will be a long time before she can get near my grandma. And unfortunately there's no way to counter condition her to my grandma because she lives 3 hours away. I think she's scared of Winnie, too. Especially after this weekend when Winnie broke the crate trying to get to her. ::siiiiiigh::
That's a tough one - you are right that the "skin shredding" side doesn't come out in the video. In the video she does seem like "just" an excitable puppy, so that's what people are reacting to here. Though makes it even more strange that you got the reply you did on your other forum! Your grandmother doesn't look fragile in the video (she looks like quite young granny! ) but a lot of older people have quite fragile skin. I've got 3rd degree burn scars all over my hands which has the same effect and bleed at the slightest scratch. Not making excuses for Winnie, but you may now have sort of a vicious cycle where Winnie did the normal-yet-irritating crocopup thing, ended up unintentionally really hurting grandma, who is now afraid and whose fear feeds in to Winnie's excitement and makes her more likely to be a crocopup. It's a head-scratcher for sure!
And, as I said, I understand what you were doing. It is really not helpful to push her like this, though; all you're doing is giving her chances to rehearse the behaviours you are trying to extinguish and that's never a good thing. You should be actively avoiding those behaviours and setting her up to succeed. Flooding is generally considered an old-fashioned training technique and is potentially very dangerous. Personally, I'd avoid it like the plague. Even if it appears to be working, you're risking simply masking the unwanted behaviour instead of curing it. She needs mental stimulation far more than physical. If you can't take her on traditional walks, that's fine, you absolutely don't have to until you're ready to. There are plenty of dogs on here who have had forced restrictions on their exercise for one reason or another for months at a time, and they do fine with the right mental stimulation. So, rather than thinking she has to be exercised, take her to a wide open, quiet place and work on something. Even if that's just sitting and watching the world go by. Puppies need to learn how to switch off, and it's one of the lessons many people forget to teach them. Then, once you've got her to the point where she can be safely walked where you want to go, you can work on building up her fitness and stamina. You absolutely have to find a way to change your attitude to training and start enjoying it. When you're frustrated and annoyed, she'll pick up on it and it will confuse her. So, think about tiny achievable goals and go and work on one. Just one. Make it so easy as to not even be worth thinking about. When she succeeds, give her a good fuss - not just a pat on the head and a "good girl", get really excited and show her you mean it. Then go home. Next time, make it a tiny bit harder. Again, with the fuss. Every time she does something right - and I'm sure there are hundreds of occasions during the day that this happens, let her know how good she has been. By being positive in your attitude, even if it's a bit forced at first, you'll be able to celebrate her (and your) successes, which will make it more enjoyable and will help you both strive to improve even more. Adolescent dogs can be trying; that's why they're so often abandoned. It just takes patience and understanding, and setting them up for success. And wine. Lots of wine.
Thank you so much. My biggest fear this entire time is failing her. I cried every day the first two months I had her (tearing up a little now). It's better now. But she can be very defiant - seemingly purposefully defiant. My older girl was just born good - gentle, pure, and the sweetest spirit. There's nothing I did to make my older girl good - she was just born good. Then comes this nutty reactive puppy that destroys everything, bites, barks, and scratches. Stressful to say the least! But we take it one day at a time. My hope in getting her is that she would be a therapy dog for me to use in my therapy. So this gives me hope that that may still be a possibility.
So that's good progress. The next stage is to give the peanut butter spoon immediately after the dog has passed - so you'll need to practise somewhere where you can be at a distance from other dogs. I didn't have exactly your problem, but Molly was awful with lunging at cars for a while because I didn't do enough work in traffic when she was small. However I took the approach of treating as soon as a car appeared, gradually fading it to a reward after the car passed - and I mean gradually, it took a couple of months. And now we can walk around towns withou treats. Don't think you'll have to treat at this level forever. And yes, you need to exercise Winnie. It sounds as if you're in the USA and I know it's more difficult there than in the U.K. to find off-lead places, but if you can I'm sure it would help. Think about what would be fun for you to do with her. Perhaps some retrieving in your back garden? Have you got room to set up a jump or tunnel? Playing with Molly is a great joy to me and if you could start to have fun together it would have a knock-on effect. It does sound a bit as though you're seeking permission to use punishment. Please don't go down the route of ecollar etc. Consequences, as snowbunny has said, of not getting what she wants until she behaves acceptably will work. With children, if they are finding something difficult, then you simplify the task - if a young child at school can't sit still for a fifteen minute story, well then you ask them to listen to a five minute one at first. This principle can be applied to your dog - make things easier for her, and it will be easier for you too.
Oh it's definitely due to fragile skin. There wasn't as much blood as it looked like there should be based on the injury. But my legs and arms are covered in bruises and lacerations from her. Not as much today as it was months ago but still. The smacking has gotten better, though. Thank God. Winnie looks like a brindle lab - but her paws are giant mastiff paws. They're powerful and cause injury.
So how do you suggest that I video her behavior for others to see? I want people to see it because my first trainer assumed she was fear-reactive based solely on my description. She's not. Which is why people need to see it. But LAT with distance isn't always realistic. Two weeks ago I had a lot of people over at my house - I met everyone outside for Winnie to greet. We sat there while she bounced and barked and then C/T when she sat or down. There was no other choice unless I wanted to send Winnie to a boarding facility - and I'm not going down that road. She calmed quickly, was off leash within minutes, and wasn't overly excited. If you have suggestions of how this could've been handled differently - let me know. That won't work - I can't get excited. When I get excited - she escalates, gets crazy excited, and starts jumping and biting. I tell everyone - you can't rough play with Winnie. You can't jump around, run, or engage in rough play because she escalates and can't bring herself down. My attitude is a result of being very isolated and not seeing significant progress. I bought a new house and it was a long time until I could have people over. I was scared she'd hurt someone by jumping or swatting. I couldn't go see my family (they live 150 miles away) for 4-5 months because of her behavior. As I said earlier - I cried daily for the first 2-3 months that I had her. [/quote] Oh I keep wine in stock.
I REALLY empathise! My first pup was an angel in terms of temperament from the moment I picked him up at 8 weeks. It never even entered my mind that he would be aggressive or even naughty because he just purely wasn't. Then, like you, I ended up with psycho pup for my second dog. Totally shattered my confidence and many tears and "What have I done??!!!" wailings followed for a long, long time. I also considered re-homing him. Which seems completely nuts to me now as we ended up a mobility assistance dog certified team and losing him last year still feels like someone cut off my right arm and my whole heart. It's not time to give up on your therapy dog dream yet, not by a long shot.
Yep, déjà vu here as well. Me reacting to my dog's reactivity is (in my personal opinion) why my boy's reactivity issues lasted much longer than they should have done. I had a really hard time learning to stay completely and utterly zen in the face of his own reactions. The skills he taught me have however been very useful in many aspects of my life, so for that I'm grateful - though I tell you, I wasn't too "grateful" at the time (lol)! I think you are smart for having figured this out already. But I also agree with @snowbunny that she needs a ton of really special praise when making progress on this issue. Not leaping about and shouting "rah rah" praise, but still something that floats her boat and tells her how happy you are with her. For mine, that translated into a softly cooed "goooooooood boy" that he only got for real progress, followed up by chicken and/or a butt scratch (his two favourite things).
