arthritis in labradors - any advice particularly regarding food/supplements

Yes it's pretty good , I have recommended it to a lot of other dog walkers that I meet here in the Scottish Borders and I've only ever had positive feedback .

 

* Glucosamine/chondroitine supplements
* Vitamin C
* Golden paste (turmeric)
* Fish oil (omega 3 fatty acids)
* Avoid carbs (if you can avoid kibble by all means do that, otherwise choose a kibble low in carbs)
* Regular exercise (low-impact, like swimming)
* Physical therapy
* Keep the dog on the lower end of his normal weight

 

We've had this one before....the last time I looked, there was no evidence of effectiveness for turmeric, and there is no evidence it's even safe to feed to a dog in large quantities.

There is no evidence that feeding a dog carbohydrate is problematic as far as arthritis goes.

The Whole Dog Journal, and Dog Naturally Magazine do not count as evidence.

But very grateful to see references if you have them (in line with Rule 3 of the forum).

 

Carbs may promote inflammation, they certainly don't cause arthritis per se.
As for turmeric, I never said you should feed your dog large quantities. A teaspoon of golden paste is the dose for Labs. It helps reduce inflammation. As for whether it really works, you can say the same about glucosamine supplements. For what it's worth, it definitely won't hurt to try.

 

Please do link to evidence that feeding carbohydrate to dogs promote inflammation. Because it would be an awful shame if people were running round changing food for no good reason whatsoever.

I do say the same about glucosamine supplements - indeed I think they are very unlikely to work. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/49681119_What_Is_the_Evidence. They have at least been enough studies of their use to think them safe though.

I disagree that 'it won't hurt to try'. How do you know that? If a substance has an effect, then it also has side effects. There have been absolutely no studies on the safety of feeding turmeric to dogs. If people google 'golden paste' for dogs, they will come across several articles that recommend feeding a tsp of golden paste to dogs several times a day, on the assumption as much as they like can be fed. I think this is bonkers. I think it is most likely that all you'll do feeding turmeric to dogs is to upset their tummies and make them feel sick on top of being stiff.

 

There seems to be a lot of people feed Golden Paste to their dogs, with anecdotal good effect. I'm happy to take turmeric myself to help prevent inflammation (I love turmeric in cottage cheese and soups!) and I take a daily capsule containing curcumin from turmeric, gingerols and piperine , but I wouldn't be happy to give it to my dog without knowing it was "safe". Remember, we used to give dogs chocolate and grapes in "the olden days"..

 

Or you can just google it. Besides, dogs don't need so many carbs. They don't, and can't use carbs for energy, they use fat for that purpose. Carbs have to be metabolized into fat in order to be used.

How I know that? I have a 10 1/2 year old dog, who was hit by a car in August last year. He survived with a completely dislocated hip and had to undergo a FHO surgery. Apart from that, he has spondylosis, HD in his other hip, ED in both elbows, and still going strong. I did my fair share of research before starting my dog on any of these. He walks 5-6 km daily and today, we went for an 8 km walk and he did great. His physical therapist is amazed on how active he is, considering all the issues he has. He is on a homemade, raw diet with added veggies. And the only carbs he gets are from the veggies.

Meet Cookie





Also, a couple of days ago I noticed an add about a new Royal Canin formula for dogs with mobility issues. It stated there was curcumin added, among other things.

For me, sometimes seeing is believing, and for me it's more important than statistics and research. If you are concerned about the safety of turmeric, I can only (anecdotally) help by saying that I do a full blood panel twice a year and the last one was a few weeks ago - everything came back normal.

 

I did, but just came up with a load of unreliable rubbish.

 

Again, I said what I do, and I shared my story. People may or may not listed to my advice, nor any advice given here.

And if that is the only thing you have to add after my post, I have nothing else to tell you. Good luck when your dog gets into his senior years.

 

The real evidence for any of these supplements is really poor, unfortunately.

Can I point out one of the forum rules?

Moderator Note: 3. Advice to others

Advice to others should be relevant and appropriate. This is especially important when it comes to health, safety, and welfare.

a) health advice

This forum supports and promotes evidence-based medicine. This does not mean we cannot discuss alternative therapies, we can. But claims for their efficacy need to be supported. Ideally with links to the relevant research

In the same way, members disputing the efficacy of mainstream veterinary treatments need to support their claims in a reasonable manner.

Please note that in the UK, where this forum is based, it is illegal for anyone other than a veterinary surgeon to diagnose or prescribe treatment for, another person's pet.

Sadly, unless there is any hard research evidence, it is just anecdotal.
Sometimes good to hear other people's anecdotes, but Pippa's ethos is very much one of evidence.

Sorry to wade in, just that I know Julie has done a lot of literature reviews on the value of supplements.

I am now donning my hard hat here to ask if we can keep this discussion polite?

 

Well, that's just nasty.

 

This is a typical old (active) member vs new (non-active) member dispute. Of course the active member's opinion matters more. I've seen it so many times over the years on many forums. And that's sad.

Besides, I didn't say anything nasty. I just know when your dog has an issue you will dig deeper than just buying NSAIDs from your vet (we all know the side effects of these when used long term). Well, at least, some people will. The OP asked for advice on supplements to help his dog with arthritis - I just listed mine.

When I said google it - I meant exactly that - you will find various, opposing opinions on the internet. When it comes to turmeric, you will find vets recommending it. One link leads to a WebMD's website, listing a list of symptoms where turmeric may help, along with its side effects. You will find research on turmeric and cancer, too. I don't think turmeric is a panacea, but I am not convinced you will kill your dog by adding a teaspoon of golden paste in its diet.

Also, I didn't know I have to list references when stating my opinion and experience though. Good to know.

 

I'm just going to answer one point - the veiled accusation that all I'll do when my dog has an issue is buy NSAIDs from my vet is very particularly nasty and also (if you know anything at all about me) complete and utter rubbish.

Attacking a person when they disagree with you is the lowest, really.

 

Berna, I think you have missed the point.
This is about evidence-based treatments, not anecdotal benefit, certainly not about old member versus new.

I think you are walking a very fine line and verging into the rude/offensive.

 

I am responsible for what I say, not for what you hear -

I never accused you that all you'll do when your dog has an issue is buy NSAIDs. Read again what I said. You may even research turmeric. Never say never.

Over and out. Have a great evening, enjoy a walk with your pups, hug them for me.

 

This is an important argument that often divides people.

It’s a ‘does evidence matter’ argument. It has nothing to do with old v new, except for the fact that established members are more likely to be aware of the rules

I believe passionately, that evidence does matter. That’s why we have a rule on this forum asking people to support claims for alternative remedies with evidence. And why I am reposting a short post that can be found on one of my websites, below.

I believe that ‘seeing is believing’ is a very dangerous attitude when it comes to medicine. It can lead to people pursuing ‘alternative remedies’ that don’t work at the expense of their pet’s health and welfare. And it lines the pockets of those producing selling fake products that may contain no active ingredients at all.

My passion for evidence doesn’t mean we can’t post anecdotal reports, provided that we are clear that this is what it is. Anecdotal reports can be useful, and can be indicators that proper studies might be valuable in this area.

But it is important that anecdotal evidence doesn’t slip into a ‘promotional’ campaign for a product for which there is no actual proof of efficacy. I do appreciate that this boundary between talking about what an individual likes to use, and openly promoting a completely unproven remedy can sometimes be a difficult thing to define.

And in many ways, this forum is in uncharted territory in this respect. Which means that newcomers to the forum can be somewhat taken aback to be asked for ‘evidence’

This

is a specific claim for a medical benefit. It isn't an anecdote. And it needs to be supported by evidence. Otherwise, it risks misleading people.



The following is copied from my website and I hope goes some way to explaining the ethos of the forum. Apologies to those that have heard all this before

Why Evidence Matters

Every now and then, someone posts on my forum or one of my websites, a claim for an alternative therapy that may or may not work to relieve a health problem in our pets.

And is then upset when asked for a link to the evidence that supports the use of that remedy

The search for evidence lies at the heart of modern medicine, and we all need to understand why it is so important.

Sorting the good from the bad
One of the reasons that we need evidence that a medical treatment is working is to enable us to sort out good treatments from bad, and to improve our ability to help and cure people in the future.

It is this constant drive for improvement, for better and more efficacious treatments, that has powered the profound advances in science in the last hundred years

And has provided the wonderful medical treatments we have available to us today.

Finding out what works
Evidence enabled us to discover that blood-letting was killing more people than it saved.

Evidence show us that people nursed in clean hospitals were more likely to survive, and that willow bark (from which we get aspirin) had genuine pain killing properties.

Evidence is the key to the truths that underpin the scientific world.

Protecting the vulnerable
Another very important reason for insisting on evidence is simply to prevent unscrupulous people taking advantage of those who are sick, in order to gain financial benefit for themselves through the sale of quack remedies.

Sadly there will always be those that prey on others, and for some time to come there will be those that remain indoctrinated in systems we now know to be entirely ineffective.

Society's responsibility
We have a responsibility to protect those that cannot protect themselves.

A responsibility to ensure that all medical treatments do actually work. That they can be tested and that they offer genuine hope for relief, recovery and sometimes for cure.

My share in this responsibility lies with ensuring that where possible, all therapies and remedies promoted on my forum or websites, do actually work for the benefit of dogs.


I hope it goes some way to explaining our rules
I am aware that most forums are not run on these lines, and I also hope we can all continue to get along despite my arguably unusual stipulations in this regard.