Finishing on a high?

I watched a video the other day that mentioned the concept of finishing on a high. We all know the idea; if your dog fails because you've gone on too long, you want to finish on a high note and so you lower the criteria so the dog finishes with success.

This video argued that, if you do that, you run the risk of training your dog to train you to lower your criteria. That is, they learn that they don't have to try too hard because if they fail, you give them something easier to do, for which they get rewarded. The idea was that you simply acknowledge that you've made a mistake in asking for too much and just finish the session, with plenty of praise and fuss towards the dog. So, in order to earn treats, they always have to try.

I thought it was an interesting idea.

Discuss

 

Yes, interesting it is.

I'm not entirely sure though if a dog functions on the concept of what he's been asked to do as 'harder' or 'easier'. Isn't it the praise, when they've done what pleases you that encourages repetition, regardless of the level of achievement? After all its our judgement that assigns high or low effort criteria to a task.

Probably talking cobblers as I only train basic obedience and acceptable behaviour in my dogs - hopefully

 

Well, no, it's intrinsically more difficult to learn a new behaviour than perform an existing one. Or to add duration, distance or distraction to an existing behaviour.

Let's say we're working on a sit-stay. The dog has the basic behaviour, so you want to add duration. Of course, it's harder for the dog to sit there for a longer period of time; that's why we have to train for it. Now let's imagine that we've worked up to 20s in the first session, but we ask the dog to do one too many reps and he breaks. You realise that it's not a case of simply repeating; you've done too much and the dog is frazzled. At this point, I would historically have wanted to finish on a positive, so I would ask the dog to do the most basic version, probably just a sit with an immediate reward.

But, according to the video, what I could be unconsciously doing is teaching the dog that, if he fails, I then ask for something really easy, for which he gets rewarded. So, he may be learning that, if he is feeling lazy, he should fail sooner in future.

This may not be relevant to our breed, of course, who seem to thrive on learning.

It's still an interesting thought.

 

Hmm. I'm not sure about this, either. I think I would need to know more about dog psychology. I guess I approach it a little differently. When my pup is not succeeding at something, I don't typically go back to an easier version of what he's learning. I will try some behaviours that I know he knows, such as "sit" or whatever. I'll do a few of those and then tackle the one I'm trying to teach. I suppose this is slightly different than asking for a longer duration of something, though. But getting back to my musing about dog psychology, do they really have the thought process of "well I got rewarded for the shorter stay so therefore that is what she really wants so I'm going to keep doing that."? Or, "I don't feel like sitting for a long time so I'm going to keep failing at that because she will eventually give me a treat for a short sit." It feels like that is too much advance working out of cause and effect which I'm not sure is how the dog's brain works. But I'm no expert, so happy to be educated on this.

 

Nope. Don't buy it - at all. Even Charlie, who is the smartest dog ever at working out what get him what he wants wouldn't do this. And if you think that makes him easy to train, you are very much mistaken. It is much, much, much easier to train dumb blonde Betsy .

Imagine training a behaviour train which is: you know what you are supposed to do, but you deliberately get it wrong, in order to do something easier to get a treat for less effort.

What? Bonkers. No way you could train that by one exercise at the end of each session.

Although, having said that, I think the advice of 'finish on a high' really means 'don't flog it so long just because you are enjoying your dog doing what you ask until anticipation ruins your cue'.

 

I'm not sure about it. It sounds as though they are suggesting that the dog understands the chain of events and the consequences of each action. If this were true then we'd need to rethink so many other aspects of training and general doggy life.

For example, if Ella steals something in the house and I ask her to bring it back to me, I reward her for returning it. The above case would suggest that she understands the chain of events so would purposely steal things knowing the end result would be a reward.

 

They definitely do this. That's quite a simple chain to understand, and repeated many, many times a day in the average labrador house.

There just isn't a better alternative than rewarding a 'give' cue.

Also though, being retrievers, they are pre-programmed with the first half of it - pick it up. So that makes it all worse.

 

I'm certainly not saying I wholeheartedly buy it. I think it's interesting, and I'm undecided. I've not sen it in my dog, but the trainer who was discussing it says she's seen it develop in her dogs. And she's had far more dogs than me. She may be doing something else, though.

This can happen, absolutely. That's why we call stringing events together "chaining"

 

I had another thought as I was prepping dinner. The person who presented this idea is a breeder of show dogs, and starts their training at 6 weeks of age. At that age, she's doing several sessions of two minute duration throughout the day, so each rep has far more relevance than if a training session was, say, fifteen minutes long. That could have something to do with it... as well as the breed she is working with. Like I said, I'm not sold, but think it's interesting to hear everyone's ideas. I'm sure she wouldn't say it just for the hell of it - she's the author of one of the behaviour books often recommended on this forum (When Pigs Fly) and obviously believes what she says.

 

Well if that's the case then I guess it would be reasonable to assume that they could understand that a failed cue would result in an easy one, and then a reward. I'd imagine there would have to be some sort of consistency between failed cues and easy cues though.

 

It's not a massively good book though - after the bit where she says your dog doesn't get anything unless he pays attention to you and goes on to train 'look at me' until both you and your dog fall over with boredom. Ha! That's a bit unfair ...still, control unleashed has overtaken it by a million miles.

Actually, I never do this. If I go on too long so it all falls apart I just give my dog a treat and quit. At that point, I just failed to finish on a high. I don't restart the training session by asking for something else - that's not finishing on a high. I'd only do that to keep my dog in the game if I were continuing.

 

I was trying to figure out what we do. I like to break up a training session into a couple of different exercises. If we're failing on a particular exercise, I think I tend to just end what we're doing, give Ella my release cue and have a break for a minute. Then I get her focus and start the next exercise of the session. However, I do think I pick an exercise we've been having some success with to do last so that we "finish on a high" but I wonder if that's more for my benefit than hers.

 

Ah, well that's specifically what she was talking about, I think. Of course you always want to aim to finish with a success, which you do by finishing when the dog is still performing. But sometimes we get too carried away (hopefully less and less as we get more experienced) and we ask for one rep too many.

 

The other thing I've learned over time is that my dogs are always (well, usually, all other things equal) better next time. This is particularly striking with Betsy, not quite so much Charlie. So I don't sweat the 'not much success' days so much anymore.

Betsy can be not quite getting something, but when I try again the next day or couple of days, she'll be much better. She has consistently failed to perform a whip lash turn on two pips, but suddenly, she just got it. It just went: fail, fail, fail, got it. And now she is quite reliable.

So, huh.

 

The reason I would finish on a simple success is that it gives the dog and me a feeling of pleasure, so that we both feel happy and can attempt the next time of training with anticipation and not stress.

 

I think she addresses this by finishing with plenty of fuss, or a game, rather than simply a feeling of disappointment. If you were to translate your frustration to the dog by not doing something like this then, yes, I could see that the dog could start to get stressed.

I'm the same. I used to get frustrated by it, but I've just come to realise that sometimes they're not feeling it. Or sometimes, it's me that's not feeling it, and they pick up on that. There's no point slogging away in those cases, so I tend to just chill out and have a silly game instead.

 

Thanks @snowbunny.

 

Yes, this. For me, the "finish on a high note" was probably more important for me than for my dogs. Particularly the first one who was bullet proof (meaning he wasn't the most sensitive boy in the animal kingdom). But my Brogan was a delicate flower, so if we ended on something frustrating, he would pout for several hours afterwards. If we ended on his sterling recall or picking up he leach and bringing is to me (his two favourite tricks), he would be bouncy and happy. And I would, too. Win, win.

But it IS interesting to hear different viewpoints and training methods. I'm stocking them all away for when I can use them again!

 

That's why I'm suddenly thinking about things again, with the impending arrival! I'm thinking "what will I do differently this time?", so coming up with questions like this to promote discussion is really useful

 

I don't think dogs are lazy - ever. They may be unmotivated, but that's a different thing.

I don't think people are lazy either. Rest, relaxation and taking it easy are good for you.

If you are unmotivated there will be a reason for that and that's what needs work.

No such things as lazy in my book.

A reward at the end for something easy - oh yes. All our puppy class sessions finish on a high. The dog needs to know you are happy and relaxed and vice versa.


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