We have been walking Indie on a training line for a few months now in an attempt to make her more responsive to us, prevent running off after sniffs, and strengthening her recall. It's hard and stressful, particularly in the dark, and I just hope it is helping! I just was wondering if I am doing it right, and also if my use of food is ok. Basically, I am trying to be more fun than the environment (which is rabbity and cow-patty and exciting). But to do this, currently I feel like I am spending most of my time running about squeaking and throwing food about. She wouldn't be interested in tug and not normally much retrieving (unless there is a food reward afterward) so it seems like I am relying on food a lot! My general antics are as follows, interspersed with walking (in no particular order, just pic n mix) 1. Scamper about finding food in grass tussocks then bounce and squeak so she runs over to see what I've found 2. Ask her to sit, throw some food 3. Ask her to hand target, give some food 4. Ask her to stay, give her some food 5. practice a recall, LOTS of food 6. run away, when she catches up give her food 7. ask her for some heel, with periodic food 8. Beginning training a stop command, throw food! 9. Drop her dummy, send her back for it, give her some food on delivery I am worried that she is staying close because I am being a walking larder. Is she really learning to focus on me on walks, or is she focussed on the food? Given that Indie giving me any sort of focus outdoors is quite new, I do still want to reward this as often as possible, and particularly if she can do something I ask of her. But I get the feeling she is just following me about because I am showering her in tasty morsels. And even though I try usually not to have a treat actually in my hand whilst giving her cues, for some behaviours that involve throwing a treat i do have it in my hand, and even when I don't, she knows what food I have on me and can see my treatbag etc and so perhaps is it all bribery? I guess my questions are, A) does what I am doing during our outdoor time sound ok? B) is the aim of this to be that responding to my commands outdoors gradually becomes automatic? Or will it remain a considered decision on her part, weighing up what is more rewarding, my treats or the environment? I am just worried that actually what she is learning is that she can give me focus when I have something she wants and she has the bright yellow line attached, and it doesn't actually represent a true progression in her obedience. Am I worrying unnecessarily? Will this type of training pay off?
And the biggest question, why am I up at almost midnight on a Saturday worrying about dog training...?
Ha ha...that last one is easy - beacause you are a Good Dog Mum. I understand your concern about this, for at times it does seem like we are only "loved" because we shower food upon our pooches. But when you break it down to the basic question, would you rather have obedience from your dog because they are excited to get something good when they do what you want, or because they are scared that something bad will happen if they don't? I think what you are doing on your walks sounds good. You are giving her reasons to be around you that are more compelling than the exciting environment. That's good. It will pay off, it will become a habit for her to stick close to you rather than go haring away. That being said, it's likely not going to be 100% effective, because our dogs are not robots and because, well, Life. But as you continue to train things like recall and stop you will increasingly have more tools in the tool kit to manage those times when things go to pot. Keep it up, it sounds like you are doing great to me!
I think the danger is that a dog can weigh up whether it is better to be off in the enviroment or to be with you, if it has only been trained with food and thinks food is the primary reward. The dog needs to be with you because it likes being with you and not just the food. However, Indie is learning the 'habit' of being with you and eventually the habit will be built up and 'that is what I do'
Hi Lara, I agree with Lisa, you are doing the right thing and getting results because you have tasty treats if you didn't it would be a different story. I wish Charlie was as responsive as Indie with food but alas he's not or for retrieving or toys so it's tougher. If it's any help we did this for 3 years on a long line with Charlie. Also please don't think that Indie will never run off when you do eventually let her off lead, because she will, she is a Pointer afterall. I think most of us want a well behaved dog, and as Lisa said they are not robots and we are constantly training, life is life!! At the end of the day you want Indie focused on you whether that be with clicker training, food, toys or games. You are doing great x
Thanks Stacia! I don't know, I am not sure about this 'liking being with me' thing...of course, in the house she likes a cuddle and a stroke, wags her tail when I come in the room or speak to her etc so I assume she 'likes' me. But I am also sure a lot of that is tied up with me being in control of the good things, food being one of them. A stroke or cuddle from me means nothing in a rabbity field, it's probably a mild annoyance rather than anything else. Her scampering off after an exciting sniff I don't think has much bearing on how much she likes being with me in absence of any other reward. She knows I will be there when she comes back from her sniff. Perhaps if I had had her from a young puppy there might be more of this unconditional attachment? When I see things written in old fashioned training books like 'reward the dog with a kind word' or 'your dog should be desperate for your approval' I do wonder...if my dog finds a 'kind word' rewarding it would be because it had been paired regularly with something intrinsically rewarding. Or, in outdated dog training, I suspect a kind word or 'approval' was rewarding because it meant the dog had avoided a punishment. Anyway regardless of the question of whether a dog owner is intrinsically rewarding, I do hope that they way I am walking Indie now will mean that listening to me outdoors becomes a 'habit'
Thanks Helen yeah I am lucky she is reponsive to food, she actually wasn't at the start...now she loves rootling after a bit of thrown chicken etc. I think it shows her arousal levels have dropped a bit in sniffy fields - before, she couldn't take a treat from my hand and that was a sure sign she was 'over threshold'. Yes I am realistic about her running off - my hope is that during this training line time, I can develop an almost-automatic recall and this might get me out of trouble when she does forget her 'staying close' training. I guess I will work work work on the Total Recall book. Incidentally, when practicing recall, how often would you recommend doing it per walk? I've just been doing it once or twice per day because I want to keep it exciting and special - should I be practicing more?
It doesn't matter that you are showering her with treats (for now)! This is an excellent thing to do. And her 'liking being with you' is nothing to do with whether she likes you, or wants a cuddle. Her 'liking being with you' will transfer from the food to you. Or from toys to you - you do have to get this 'transference' though. This is the reason we do not continue to use food as a bribe (or lure, if you prefer).
Thanks Lisa. I do hope I am a good dog mum even if slightly neurotic! That's what I was hoping, that it will become a habit to listen and stay close (most of the time). I don't really know about how a behaviour becomes a habit and how long it takes...or if a more random reinforcement helps (like the gambling hypothesis mentioned by Pippa in Total Recall)...I'm a bit scared of withholding reward outdoors at this stage!
When we were training Charlie's recall I seem to remember we only did it a couple of times a day and only when we were pretty sure of getting a response which can be tricky. Now we hardly use a recall as we do keep it for "special" occasions but he does check in is popped on lead then off lead, does a sit etc. So I guess he has transfered from the little food he would take to us We never withold a food reward for a recall or check in, whether he takes it is another thing . x
Thank you JulieT. How can I make sure I get this transference - just hiding food better about my person so it is not a lure? Should it happen automatically? I am not sure how to tell if it has already happened or not...she likes to mooch about with me at home when I am nowhere near food - but perhaps I have a permenant 'eau de sardine' about me...
Thanks! Yep it makes sense to me to keep it relatively infrequent and so very exciting. She recalled away from a mad game with a Vizla puppy yesterday, I was very pleased and then I got overconfident, tried one more recall later when she was just mooching along and she carried on sniffing for about 5 seconds before coming back the long way round...that'll teach me for being too confident and not quitting whilst we were ahead!
Wow I couldn't recall from a Vizsla puppy, I LOVE them!! Good job Indie. 5 seconds is not a long time especially for a Pointer, so I would be happy with that. Yes quitting whilst your ahead is the key but we all do it, just one more, one more!! x
@Lara It's a very interesting question, and relates to one I was pondering as I walked Lottie on a long line in (what I call) too-many-pheasants wood this morning. I was thinking that I'd like Lottie to be able to go gallivanting through the trees, jumping over fallen logs, rolling round in leaves etc, but I'd like it to be on my terms - she can go off when I say and come back when I whistle. Anyone know if this is a realistic thing to aim for and how I go about training it? Or do I need a fantastic recall and only let her off the lead when I'm happy for her to go running off (knowing that she'll come back because of the fantastic recall )?
Hi Ali, I think you can only have those things if you train, train, train a good recall which takes a very, very, very long time, it's something that needs training for the dogs life Buy Pippa's Total Recall and work through it stage by stage, that's what we did with our rescue boy Charlie a Labrador x Pointer who had ZERO recall when we got him at 9 months You could train a stop whistle too, which I find better with Hattie x
You do ask the best questions. There are two different things wrapped up in what you are asking. One is getting a 'trained response' and the other is about 'focus and engagement' with you. You want the focus and the engagement to be a trained response to you (obviously in an appropriate context, you don't want your dog in 'work mode' whenever she is close to you, although this isn't a bad thing to have outside and a lot of working dogs do respond to their owners like this). So you just keep working on that focus and engagement in the contexts that you want it. Many people who work their dogs want this focus and engagement all the time. I want it between my cues of 'ready' and 'finished'. Between those two cues, I want my dog's attention on me 100%. So it's not relevant that my dogs will stick to me like glue in the house because they are hoping for a toast crust or for something interesting to happen or are competing to see who can get the most cuddles (although they do, of course, because I am the source of good things but this doesn't mean they will give me any attention outside). You are making a start on this in right way, I think. You first need to get your dog's attention. This is what you are doing. Then you need to work on your dog offering you attention, and reward that. Then you need to work on your dog keeping its attention on you. And so on.
This is our difficulty, we have worked hard on the first part but the second part is tough for Charlie which he can only do in little tiny portions e.g. checking in when off lead. I'm not sure we will ever nail this
It depends on the dog as to whether this is realistic or not. A red hot hunting spaniel, who won't be gallivanting through the trees for the fun of it but will immediately start hunting the pheasants - probably not realistic. The average pet Labrador, yes, this is realistic. It depends on the dog's distractions. I never thought I'd be able to relax with Charlie off lead, but I can now - he will respond to me just about no matter what he is doing and he doesn't hunt wildlife although will follow scent trails but will recall off them. Providing there are no footballs around. If there are footballs, he is at heel or on a lead and that's that. I can't have him off lead in a Gundog environment with shot and other dogs retrieving and I probably will never be able to do this. With Betsy, I can't relax if she is off lead anywhere, not for a microsecond. I might never be able to if there are birds around, the way things are going.
Honestly, you are so doing the right things. Jessie is 13 months now and we have been doing this a while and starting to see results. Not perfect yet, by any means, but I genuinely feel we are making progress. We do the same things as you. I also have a squeaky toy that only comes out on walks and really helps with attention around distractions, I squeak it in my pocket and she pays attention. She then also gets to play with it off lead. Good luck. It will come!!
Engagement was a huge challenge when Benson was younger, and in some environments it still is. You pick your battles as one trainer said to me...wise words I know now! We started working on the "checking in" behaviour, this really, really helped. We started off in what I call a "low distraction" area...back garden, driveway, etc...and with high value treats. Whenever Benson looked at me, I used my clicker and threw a treat. Then I would use a bright, cherry "OK!" which is our release cue. I gradually transferred this (very, very slowly) to higher distraction areas, which much higher value treats, or even a short game, squeaky ball, special toy for tuggy.. I love this as it is the dogs choice to check in, there is no bribery. I still though, go out on walks with a huge bag...honestly it looks like I am going camping!!! Good luck, though, it looks like you have a made a great start, hang in there, when it starts to all hang together it is just the most awesome feeling!
