It was a very painful and sad Christmas having returned little Sammy. My confidence really took a knock and I started doubting myself. Thankfully a friend with her Labrador (who ive spent a lot of time with) came to visit today and it really reminded me why I am doing this and where my heart lies. And so today I've started the search again. Because I had arranged time off work already, I would be keen to get another puppy in January or February. But every time I look at an entry on the kennel club or a breeders webpage I keep thinking "but what if they are sick?!" I think I have to just do all the checks I can (which I did last time) but also I've learnt that even if I find a puppy and all is well, when I go to collect I need to see it as more than a formality and actually be willing to walk away if anything is wrong. So last time I specifically looked for a working dog rather than a show dog, not because I was going to use it as a gun dog, but I do have an active outdoors lifestyle and was keen to get into things like agility training and possibly scent work. But I guess I'm now nervous of working dog breeders who keep the dogs outside (as with the last breeder). And I wonder if I should broaden my search..if pups from a show line would be equally as active? I have found a litter who are kennel club registered and using the following stud. Does this look like a working or show dog? http://www.jimjoylabradors.co.uk/frosty.html. This is the link to the mum and litter (I'm quite cautious of litters advertised on pets for homes, but this litter is also advertised on the kennel club listing). http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/classifieds/1472198-labrador-puppies-solihull.html I live in Cambridgeshire but would be willing to travel for the right litter. Any thoughts?
The dog you link to is a show line dog - in theory. Jim Joy breed Labradors in quite high numbers - you can see that there is no mention of actual achievements of the stud dog, just temperament. There is nothing particularly wrong with this, but it is what it is. This stud dog is really about the pet dog market, not the show ring. There is absolutely no information about the Dam - so can't say anything about that. Have you seen the pedigree and the health tests?
No helpful advice for you, but we got Bailey from a breeder we saw on Pets4homes....before I found this site....and we were lucky with him he's a beautiful boy that so far has not had any health issues at all. Good luck and please don't doubt yourself, go with your gut when you visit
Others can give you better advice on your search - I'm a total newbie myself and am also currently searching. What I will say to you is what I've said to myself lately. For very different reasons than yours, I've also slipped my deadline, so to speak. I've also made advance plans (though further ahead than yours) to prepare for caring for a puppy and that I cannot now change. I should have been making my final breeder visits right now, making a firm decision and reserving my puppy. Hasn't happened and frankly I feel pretty cruddy about it. I positively hate not having a dog. It's sad and lonely and stinks. But here is what I also am telling myself in my more logical moments: this dog will be a huge part of my life for (hopefully) the next 15 or so years. Five years from now, how important will it be that I got my dog, for example, in October instead of June? Will even remember that original deadline? Or will I just know that I took the time to find the right dog for me? Just saying - be kind to yourself. Even though you have the time off planned, don't think you HAVE to find a puppy immediately. If you do find the right dog within your time window...perfect. But if not, that's ok too.
If you're "just" looking for a pet dog, as opposed to looking to work or show your dog, then absolutely keep your options open between the different types. A show lines dog can be just as active as one from working lines. My puppy is from show lines, but the kennel has a very strong history of working their dogs. The mum is the breeder's regular peg dog, as well as having her stud book number. A friend of mine has always owned show line Labs, and hikes for hours in the mountains every day with her dogs, summer and winter. Fitness and endurance can be built up whatever the dog's breeding.
Snowbunny I've been following your new arrival via your blog! She is gorgeous (as are your other two!) Can I ask - having come from so far had you previously visited the kennel/breeder? Or did you first visit on collection day? How did you choose that kennel in particular?
I've emailed the breeder to ask about health tests (including hip and elbow scores). My bottom line (especially in light of my recent experiences) is to have a healthy dog. I am not looking to go on and breed the puppy when she is older. And I don't necessarily need a champion show or working dog. But equally I don't want a puppy from a puppy farm or from poor breeding where health conditions are more likely (can never eradicate risk - just reduce it).
Benson is 100% showline, although some of his close relatives have been used for Guide dogs for the blind. He can trot for hours, is calm, affectionate just the perfect dog. He is even going to his first shoot this week. He is from Courtmeyln labradors if you want to google them. All their sires and dams are from proven show champions. Their website gives you an idea of what to look for. They have Oakhouse Onky Tonk as the main stud as well as Benson dad
Health tests are absolutely essential for the parents - although you had a bad experience with a puppy not in the best early health, that's nothing compared with a few months later dealing with ED or HD. So your top priority has to be great health tests. And check the EBVs of the parents, and the inbreeding coefficient of the litter too, on the kennel club site. After that, look for a breeder that is doing something with her dogs. It can be anything really, showing or gundog work, or supplying assistance dogs, or rally - anything like that. Make sure the parents look athletic, fit, and have decent conformation. Meet the parents if you can, and check out their temperaments (a dog with phobias and fears can be as traumatic to deal with as one with health problems). Personally, I'd also look for a breeder with one litter at a time, and that litter inside a family home but lots of still good breeders kennel dogs, if everything else was ok I'd compromise on that if the breeder seemed knowledgable about early socialisation programmes and genuinely had the time to put one in place. If you'll take either show or working, then wherever you find all of the above (and that's not all that easy) then snap up the puppy...
The other thing to say is that - unfortunately - if you look for a top line show or working line kennel, you have to be very careful with the inbreeding co-efficient of the litter. This is an identical problem across both show and working. People who are restricting a choice of mates for special characteristics, whatever those may be, are choosing from a much smaller pool. You can check this out here, on the kennel club's mate select: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/
This is so helpful Julie thank you. I didn't know about the EBV and inbreeding coefficient. Ive just looked them up on the kennel club page. In terms of the coefficient - what percentage would you say do not have greater than? So average is 6.5% and the stud I mention at the top is 17.1. EBV is 75% and 88% (so lower risk than the breed average). Hip score I had read before that you obviously want as low as possible but certainly below breed average of 12.
I visited the puppies at 4 weeks. I spent a long time researching what I wanted. I suppose in some ways, it was easier for me because I wanted something very specific - a chocolate dog with great conformation who was able to work. There's not many of those out there, so my options were pretty limited! OK, I'm being a bit flippant - there are so, so many breeders out there it's a very daunting thing to start. But, when I started contacting breeders, many of them recommended this one kennel. It was actually the first kennel I fell in love with, but initially didn't think the timings would work out for me. In the end, I came back to it and made my timings fit. My breeder kennels her dogs, but the puppies were in the house for the first six weeks and still socialised after that. I don't know if you've see this post I wrote about my search? https://thislittledoggy.com/2016/11/14/the-hunt-for-a-puppy/ The thing you need to do is make a list of the things that are absolutely non-negotiable - such as hip and elbow scores of both parents, and any other health tests you deem to be necessary. Then write a list of things you'd be willing to compromise on for the right litter. I became more and more selective throughout my search, starting off thinking along the lines of a vaguely well put-together dog but becoming more and more set on having strong show lines as I went along. The parents of my puppy aren't top show dogs, but they are very strong and I think the sire has a good chance of doing very well. I started off looking for bitches that I liked, but very soon gave up on this, because you only get a maximum of one litter out of a bitch every year, and if the sire isn't one that you like, then you have to wait again. So, I'd suggest finding a dog that you like and following him to see what bitches he's being put to. It's a little less soul destroying.
My Labs are working Labs and I have done training classes with many gunddogs and seen new pups coming up and they have all been healthy. I think you were very unlucky with little Sammy. Always make sure the dam and sire have been health checked and the breeder will let you come and see the pups each week as they grow, usually from about five weeks onward, and see them with their Mother.
CoI is one thing I compromised on. You want to have it as low as possible and preferably below breed average. But, as Julie says, when you start looking at top dogs, it's very difficult to find this. You have to compromise somewhere, unless you're prepared to wait for a very long time, and potentially never find what you're looking for. The CoI of my puppy's litter is slightly higher than the average. It's basically a percentage of risk - the higher the number, the higher the risk of two recessive genes coming together. A sky-high CoI isn't a guarantee of a problem, but is an increased risk. Similarly, a low CoI doesn't guarantee there won't be a problem. Like everything else, it's something you have to measure up against your criteria to work out what's important to you.
The breed average or lower. You can take a risk on it. I did with my first pup. He had cruciate disease. That removed my appetite for taking a risk on CoI - forever.
Sorry, @snowbunny that wasn't a comment on Luna's CoI which isn't a sky high one anyway - it was just a reply that came after your post!
It's easy to get 0:0 hips these days in Labradors.... I'd go for as low as possible, and rule out anything above 5 in a single hip. I also double the worst hip to decide. So a dog with 1:4 I'd view as an 8, not a 5.
Ripple is from a show line - and his mum is a Jimjoy Labrador. We got him via the champdogs site which gives the details of both parents, he came from a breeder in Scotland. I did meet both parents and a female from an earlier litter. However I never intend to show him, he will always be a pet dog. I agree you need to go with your instinct as well as making all the necessary health checks. Good luck with your search.
Not a problem, I agree that the lower CoI, the better. I'd love to have a super low CoI, but if I held out for it alongside my other criteria, I'd be waiting a very long time! You have to just assess the risk. The lower the number, the lower the risk and the rest is pretty much just crossing your fingers!
The other thing is how you can become quite blasé after a while of seeing CoIs in the late teens and early 20s. Suddenly, just over breed average seems remarkably good!
