Oh my goodness. I thought he was catching on, but I now think that the only thing he's caught on to with the "down" behaviour is that if he sits there long enough, my back will start to hurt and I will give up! I've started doing this training on the slippery kitchen floor. That way, when his feet fall out from under him and he lies down, I have reason to praise and reinforce the behaviour!! Okay. I feel better now. I just had to vent a little to people who might feel my pain. The rest of my family is tired of me yapping on about Archie and his training failures
Feel your pain @Deb - Archie's Human - Bailey totally and utterly fails to recognise the "lay" command....even at dog training where they had me sitting on the floor with Bailey one side of me and the treat in my opposite hand. Pull my legs up to form a tunnel and encourage him under them - one small problem I don't have long legs and Bailey couldn't/wouldn't go under them....instructor suggested putting my feet up a wall - same positions with dog and treat...Bailey starts going under my legs on his tummy - great I think...then BOSH he stands up and I end up on my back and smack my head on the floor - feet in the air - oh what elegance Bailey then had mum at his mercy, so once treat was gone I got a good face wash!!!! Am currently rewarding when he lays down naturally and saying "lay"....
You don't have to train down. I never use 'down'. My OH does, so he trained Betsy (slightly annoyingly because I had no intention of training it). I half heartedly trained Charlie, but since I never use it, he's not very good at it.
I think some dogs just don't get it. My OH's brothers dog is really well trained and I was playing with her over Xmas. I asked her for a lie down and she got all frustrated cos she wasn't getting the treat and they explained she's just never got it. So I got her to roll over instead
I am like JulieT, never trained my dogs to 'down' as no 1 had a broken elbow so didn't want to damage it and then it never seemed to be necessary in my life.
I was under the impression that a 'down' is better for them than a 'sit' if you want them to stay still somewhere for a longer period, like 5min or so. That is why we ended up training down, but we also have 'settle' which is her totaly relaxed and feet to one side like a lady that she is.
Oh Archie, what a smart boy! I had the opposite problem with my boys. Neither wanted to hold a "sit" for longer than a couple seconds...they would just bonelessly collapse into a "down" which would then turn into a "snore" if I wanted to keep them in that position for longer than a minute or so. Very chilled out dogs! For part of Brogan's service dog exam, the description said he had to hold a sit-stay for five minutes and I thought for sure he was going to get failed on that alone. I explained my dilemma to trainer and she said that in fact for most dogs, the sit-stay is easier than the down, so that's why the test was written in that way. But in real life, they didn't really care if the dog was sitting or down, as long as he held the stay. Problem solved, task passed! Which then came back to bite me in the posterior when we started taking public transport. You actually do want your dog in a proper sit-stay on a bus/tube/tram situation which is standing room only. He'd take up too much room and have more chances to get stepped on if he slid into a down. So the common sight of Brogan and me on a full train was him starting to slide into a down and me chanting "up, up, up" every few seconds and Brogan shooting me the "Seriously? I really can't be bothered" look. The long-winded way to say that Archie's preference to sit isn't entirely a bad thing!
A healthy dog should be able to sit for quite a long period. If the dog is uncomfortable, or even just feeling a bit lazy, unless you have trained the dog to stay in a sit then it will lie down anyway in a long duration stay. It's a much bigger problem getting dogs not to lie down during long duration stays (a fault in obedience and gundog tests) than not being able to get them to lie down if they want to do so.
Thanks @JulieT. She does both as we are not pushing the time at present. We have got to 30sec on each, then release. So will increase the Sit for now. Always though obedience classes would know everything, clearly not. @deb it took us a while to get Vanilla to get the down. Especially after a lot of confusion from obedience class.
In the Gundog tests, some people prefer a dog in a down for a long duration stay - they think it is a 'steadier' position. Other people consider it a fault because the dog can't mark so well in a down compared to a sit. The requirement is for a sit. Well, perhaps there is both a down stay and a sit stay in obedience? I don't do it myself, and I only have one obedience book about a long duration stay in a sit. Personally, I don't care and I'm ok with my older dog going into a down if he finds it more comfortable - he has had cruciate repairs. I don't let my younger dog go into a down when I've asked for a sit, because there isn't a good reason why she can't stay sitting.
Yes, KC gold requires a 'down' stay a 'sit' stay and a 'stand' stay. I train down using a lure at first - here is Mollie in the early stages - you need to lure them right next to their nose at first, then feed a succession of treats while they are down, I ask for the 'upsit' straight away as they always get up anyway in the early days
When i did KC gold last May it only required a down stay for 2 minutes, 30 seconds of which were out of sight. In obedience competitions both pre-beginners and beginners require a sit stay and a down stay. Molly's down stay is very reliable, but in sit stay she tends to slump into a down after about 2 minutes. Someone I know with a very good young dog who is heading for competitive obedience says she only teaches sit stay, not down, until it's very secure because otherwise dogs tend to do as Molly does and go into a down.
I'm already starting to teach Mollie both - I use a different hand signal for each so she knows the difference ...
I guess I had thought that a down/stay would be good when we have company or when we are out and about. As he is STILL struggling to sort this out, I may work on lengthening his sit/stay as an alternative. Thanks for all of the tips and info, everyone! Happy Friday!
I don't think you'd want a down-stay for that. You'd want a settle instead. A down-stay would be him still switched on, waiting for another cue from you - and if left too long, he'll break it, which would destroy your training. Whereas teaching him a settle means "nothing interesting is going to happen for a while, so you might as well relax".
Thanks so much! I sure wish I had found this board BEFORE I got Archie. I would have been in a much better position for training him! And as far as he's concerned, he has this "Down" thing figured out... (You'll want your volume on )
I love 'down', it's our most used command! Mostly it's used for when we're eating or friends are round or we're at the pub and we need Libby to be settled by our feet or wherever. Persevere if you want that too.
A down and a settle really are two very different things though. A dog settling by your feet is not in a cued down. My dogs will settle by my feet, but I don't cue down to get that. I cue settle.
