On Wednesday evening we went along to a new obedience class. I had opted to do the basic class to just refresh his basic skills. He pulled a little as we arrived-this was a new trainer-but settled down well. There were only six dogs seated a couple of metres apart. The class itself went well but it all fell apart when we were leaving. Other dogs are Bailey's nemesis so I watched for a gap in people leaving and trotted to the gate. We were almost out the gate when to my horror I hear a voice very close behind say"I'll get the gate". My first reaction was to turn and say"please back up as Bailey"... that's all I got out before Bailey whipped his head around to see the other dog right on his tail. I didn't have a hope of controlling my 10 month old hooligan who was very surprised to see this dog so close. Bailey was in a harness but with a dog so close it didn't matter at all. After what seemed like an hour of barking and pulling I got him under control. The other dog was just fine but the owner obviously wasn't. I wasn't surprised when the trainer called the next day to say Bailey was not allowed to come to classes. She basically said that he is an aggressive dog and needs to be desexed. I am so disappointed, angry and sad. Yet again I was in tears over this gorgeous dog We were doing really well with his training and on walks we meet other dogs and with-look at that -and look at me-and treats-he has come a long way. He is ok now with people, bikes, skateboards and birds, but dogs are a work in progress. I don't know what else I could have done. What would you have done? I'd be happy to hear some suggestions. We will continue on our own, and hopefully one day I can add dogs to his list of 'that's ok Mum'.
Shame on that trainer. Clearly she doesn't have a clue about proper training if she makes a decision based on an episode which she didn't even witness (I am assuming). No suggestions on how to manage behaviour from her? No words of support? Or a "behaviour expert" to get advice from? Really sounds like you are better off without her. You are obviously doing a good job with your training. You know what to do. Bailey is worth it, don't give up, and don't let people put you down. The fact that you care and are working to do your best for Bailey is at least half the battle. The challenge may be finding "stooge dogs" to work with. I know that you need to work with calm in so many different scenarios, there is always going to be one you haven't accounted for. I am quite sure that our forum members who are more training literate than me will help, I really just wanted to give my support, and disappointment that a "Trainer" has behaved in such a negative way
Oh, that's a real shame. Sorry to hear it kind of went to bits in the end. I'm a little surprised at the reaction of the trainer, however. As has been amply discussed here on the Forum, castrating a male doesn't do much for the aggression thing. But more to the point, if you are coming to class to do training, that sort of assumes that none of the dogs in the class are already 100% trained. I've had a dog-aggressive dog in classes and I've seen a lot of others, and there is a way to deal with them. Just telling you not to come back unless you cut of your dog's b**ls is not it. Here's where I do think you could do something differently next time: tell the trainer in advance of Bailey's issues and make sure on the first day of class (1) you are allowed to arrive and depart the training area separately either first or last, and (2) the trainer announces to everyone there that Bailey is working on some issues, that he is a good dog, but that he needs space and should not be approached with another dog without your permission. If you already did this with the trainer you are talking about above, and this still happened...then that's a poor trainer. Keep on walking and don't feel you are missing out. Speaking as someone who had a dog who started out with severe on-leash dog-aggression but went through a billion training classes, please keep trying until you find a good trainer and supportive group. I ran across a couple jerky people, but 95% of the trainers I used were supportive, as were the other students. And most importantly, my dog did make it though his (ahem..) "troublesome" period and turned into an awesome guy on and off leash. Keep the hope alive for you and Bailey.
Oh Bev sorry to read this .....I bet the whole situation has left you feeling a bit glum... My dog isn't great meeting other dogs on lead....he will work quite happily on and off lead in a class situation but I'd have needed to make sure he had space coming out of a tight gate space so I probably would have made him wait until last ....but that's easy for me to say sitting here typing with 3 1/2 years experience of my own dog. It's hard to know exactly what was going on without seeing it.I'd have thought that an experienced Trainer would have explained the decision better in the phone call ,noise on its own doesn't necessarily mean aggression and it seems very flippant to suggest desexing is the answer.....it's a decision an owner should take very carefully with many factors to consider. I'm not sure if you have been facing reactivity issues with Bailey from your Post? I can tell you've been working on some situations but most of them sound like normal exciting things young labs want to pull towards or chase......things we need to train around and that sounds like exactly what you have been doing . From my understanding of what happened I don't think the Trainer has handled this particularly well or sensitively.Do you have other training resources in your area ?
Bev I am really sorry your "trainer" reacted so badly. I would be trying to find another class. We have the same problem with Coco - other dogs are just SO exciting, he barks and lunges and this is WHY we go to class. He can do all the usual obedience exercises with his eyes shut, but the presence of anything from 5 - 15 other dogs is really helping him behave more calmly around them. He is coming on slowly, very slowly. We are so lucky our trainer can see Coco has NO aggression, he's forever explaining to newbies "Don't mind him, he's all mouth & no trousers". It is worth trying to find another class. De-sexing is NOT the answer. Coco was neutered when we got him. He is bouncy, barky & lungey. Training is the answer. Training with a competent and understanding trainer.
Thanks all. I've not had any problems with Bailey other than the normal Chocolate Lab excitement. I've worked through staying calm around people, birds, bikes, etc. Ignoring other dogs is going to take a while! I appreciate that an excitement barking Lab is confronting, which is why I'm working on it. He doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. This is a dog who on Thursday stood looking at his bed not knowing what to do while my daughters four month old Lab lay in Bailey's bed and chewed on Bailey's Kong bone! The last two trainers we have used have both said he needs to be desexed.
Could this be something to do with where you live? It's something that's come up before in neutering discussions ,how culturally some parts of the world advocate it more strongly than others.There is so much more education now on neutering and its effects ,it's a very outdated view to recommend it based purely on age or behaviour x
Shocking reaction on the part of the trainer , I agree with everyone who said you are better off without her. Ripple was exactly the same at training classes and our trainers were really patient with him, although I chose not to go any more after three ten week blocks when it became obvious that he would never pass his 'stay' and we were having trouble with a collies owner. But it seems they never really gave Bailey a chance.
I live in Australia and I'm not sure what the prevailing view is. I know that the vet we used when Bailey was tiny assumed he would be desexed at 6 months. Our new vet discussed desexing with me at our first appointment. She suggested to leave it until at least 12 months, but was open to doing it earlier if his behaviour warranted it. It seems to me that the assumption is he would be desexed at some stage.
I blame the other owner. They should have given you and your pup space instead of getting right up his butt. He probably got spooked. I always try to give space to me or the other owners. As far as aggression. We go once a week to a puppy play time at the dog school with other large puppies to allow them to socialize and play. There is a medium sized dog that has always been somewhat aggressive/dominant to my Sparky always growling at him and trying to nip at him. He would specifically go and run up to my pup and do that. Sparky could care less and keeps on going and has not been afraid of him so he keeps on playing, but Sparky will not get the hint to back away from the other dog. The trainer used these opportunities to teach the owner how to try to correct this behavior, pulling him out of play, leaving the room, rewarding the dog for ignoring my dog, etc. But unfortunately, the trainer said that she may not allow the dog to come to puppy play anymore since he's almost over a year old, and he gets very reactive to new puppies all the time.
Trainer what trainer. Doesn't sound like one to me at all. Could you find another class and do as Emily suggests. There are good trainers out there it's just a case of finding one. Could you ask your vet they often have recommended trainers on file? I went to classes with Charlie when we first got him and there was a man with a very dog aggressive GSD who wore a muzzle, he was allowed to sit at the far end of the hall for weeks until his dog stopped barking and lunging and very slowly he moved nearer. The differnece in the dog was amazing but because the two trainers understood and did everything to accommodate this man and his dog whilst explaining every week to the other owners. A great example of a GREAT trainer. I also agree that the other owner was to blame, although maybe they are a first time dog owner and still learning themselves, who knows. I hope you and Bailey are OK as you sound like you are doing a really good job in tackling these things. xx
I went to a class last week. The trainer knew that Shadow has issues with some other dogs. When I arrived, she told me there were two others in the class with the same problem. It was absolutely fine. There was no nastiness, no "handbags at dawn", because everyone there knew the score; everyone with a potential "problem dog" took care of their own dog and everyone else knew to keep their distance. To be honest, an onlooker wouldn't have known that any of these dogs had behavioural problems, because there wasn't one bark or snarl that I recall - because the handlers (all of them, not just the ones of the dogs in question) all worked within the dogs' limits. I'm not saying Bailey does have a problem, but even if he did, that does not exclude you from classes. It's simply about finding the right one, with the right trainer(s) and the right ethos. I have to say, I have only been to gun dog classes, so I couldn't comment on general obedience ones, but in every class I've been to, to date, the level of respect between the handlers has been very high, inasmuch as they have generally kept appropriate distance, haven't encouraged interaction between the dogs and have just generally been there "to work". I do get the impression (which might be entirely false) that in more general classes, there's a bit more of a laissez-faire attitude.
I would also look for another trainer. To stop you going is out of order, especially as she didn't even ask you what happened and what they could do to help. You have been doing everything right to help Bailey and people like that aren't worth bothering about.
Chin up Bev, there are better trainers and class out there for you and Bailey. You are both worth more.
Thanks to everyone. All the support is invaluable to me and to Bailey. The trainer had mentioned several times in class regarding giving a dog-any dog-space. I guess the other dogs owner wasn't listening. At this stage I won't be looking for another class to take part in. The last couple have put me off for a while-both trainers telling me to desex him. I will continue with his training, working through "Total Recall" and expose him to as many dogs as I can while walking and exercising. I know we'll get there, it will just take time and patience. Luckily I have lots of time to give him. The thing that has upset me most is that for a day or so after I was looking at Bailey with different eyes. I was asking myself, is he aggressive? Can he not be trusted? I resent being left with that emotion. I'm sure Bailey picked up on it too. Luckily that passed quickly and both he and I are back to normal. Thanks again. This forum is my lifeline.
I would work on Dog to Dog socialization. All of our Labs have met as many other dogs as they could from the time they were pups. Any time we are walking and see another owner we ask if the dogs can meet. Cooper (and sometimes Tilly) will want to go meet another dog and may want to play, but they are never aggressive to other dogs.
This is exactly what we do with Bailey. He has always been exposed to as many dogs as we can from the moment we got him. He is excited to meet them but never barks or growls. He plays every day with our daughters 4 month old pup-he allows the pup to bite and pull his ears, hang off his jowls, bite his tail and steal his toys with not a hint of aggression. He barked and pulled to the dog at the training class because the dogs owner had walked the dog up to Bailey's tail with no warning whatsoever. As 'Sparkys' owner mentioned above Bailey was spooked by this and reacted by barking- and I don't blame him. I am annoyed that Bailey has been excluded from classes but the other dog and owner have not. I had nowhere to go at the gate and there was nothing I could have done to prevent what happened. The owner of the other dog should have known better-he is not a first time dog owner.
Bev, don't worry you have not done anything wrong. Put this behind you, I know it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Bailey and you will be fine.
My personal experience is that "beginning" obedience, so what you're calling general classes, with dogs 10 months and under (so in the US Puppy I & II, Intermediate I) are a little more unpredictable simply because you have more newbies who have little idea what to expect in a training class (and -ahem- just may be there more to show off their cute puppy than actually train ). By the time you get to Intermediate II, the people who are there just because they thought they should are gone and what is left are people who either just love doing obedience or who have issues with their dogs that they want to solve. While the puppy classes are fun to see all the puppies, the atmosphere of the later classes is so much better. Exactly what @snowbunny says, people are there to work and have figured out the etiquette part of things as well. I don't know if it helps (or even applies to Australia), but in general, the trainers who teach only puppy level and in big box pet supply stores (like Petsmart in the US) are usually the least qualified. They are used to dealing with cute and fluffy playtime and get over their heads if anything more stressful than teaching puppy pushups comes up. I've had best luck with trainers who teach the full gamut (Puppy I through Advanced Obedience) and compete with their own dogs in something (obedience, agility, discdog). These trainers may also teach in the big box stores (because it's a hard way to earn a living and they pick up classes where they can), but not exclusively. Or conversely my favourite "baby" classes were years ago with Sirius, started by Ian Dunbar in San Francisco. They specialised in just puppy I & II and were really fabulous - all positive, teaching with games, socialisation time for the puppies at the end of class, etc. Bailey is too old for that now, but just to mention Ian Dunbar and Sirius because I LOVED his school. Good times!
