Since Axel go neutered, he is much easier to walk. He isn't pulling off to the side to mark every 2-5 seconds (wish I was exaggerating) now on a 20 minute walk he marks 2-3 times. So I have been trying to really work on loose lead walking because now I feel I can somewhere. Just want some advice on if I'm doing things wrong or could do better. I take about a cup of kibble with me and off we go. I hold about 8 pieces in my hand and hold it in my free hand and tell him 'close' so he watches my hand then walks then watches my hand etc until I say 'good close' then he gets the hand full of kibble. Today I was able to go about 20 feet with no pulling, perfect heel, but he was watching my hand for kibble. But to me watching my hand seems fine as it's to keep his attention as I only started this yesterday. So is this wrong? Should I not let him know the kibble is in my hand or is it ok because we just started this? Days prior to this I would reach in to my pocket when I wanted to reward him but as soon as he got a treat he would be off doing his own thing again. Where as now that he knows it's in my hand he listens much better. Any thoughts?
Well, it's fine for a very short time, but it's bribing and you need to be aware of that. So it needs to be faded very quickly - which I would do in the space of a single session - otherwise you'll end up with a dog who won't perform without that bribe. You do that by just faking the food in the hand, show him it's empty and feed from the other hand. A handful of kibble is rather a lot and would be cumbersome, so I'd go higher value, lower volume in terms of treats, with the occasional jackpot.
Ok thank you! Glad I asked. I was feeling accomplished finally but then was worried it was all wrong. So I'll change that for tomorrow's walk. The kibble is just because he can't be having treats right now because of that whole stomach upset. Only kibble. I plan on doing pork and steak as rewards once he's done his prescription diet which I think he will LOVE
What I have done is to start with it was a single treat (piece of kibble or now its the liver pieces) every few paces where she was walking alongside and had her nose near my hand. As she got better it was longer between being given treats and only given more often when she coped with something new (cars, lawnmowers, bikes, etc etc). Or as a swap for grabbing something off the ground that was removed and throw away from her. As well as praising. Over time she will now look at the treat but then start going alongside and looking at other stuff and if she is going nicely I'll randomly then reward her and its like oh food rather than where is my treat. Its just been getting longer between treats - though she did very well this morning sat everytime we stopped - at roads or any other reason - every time got patted and praised but every second or third time got a treat at random. I have no issues bribing a puppy as over time they learn and if its only occasional they wont know when exactly they will get it but always get praised. Its similar to over time eventually they wont get praised every stop adn sit as it will just be expected behaviour.
Thank you for your reply! That's what I wondered, if just like when he sits before he eats or sits for a new toy or lies down in his bed when asked. I no longer reward him with treats for any of these. I faded it out so it's just expected behaviour and all is fine and he just does it automatically. But he is a terrible dog on a leash, so hyper and crazy. So wasn't sure what would be the best approach.
It's not the same thing, though, at all. He's being rewarded by having his food, or his toy. Walking at heel is extremely hard for dogs. It's an unnatural pace (it's your pace, not theirs) and it's deathly boring. By all means change your rewards from a treat to a different reward, but don't be in any rush to get rid of rewards because you will lose the behaviour, unless you use punishment. Axel is still very young. Expect to keep treating him at a high rate for many months yet for something as hard as heel. It's not a competition to have a dog who walks nicely without reward.
Coco is getting better and better at this, but I am still rewarding - sometimes I slip him a treat, sometimes I drop a treat into the grass or hide one on a wall & he gets a game of "find" it - this is helping to keep him engaged with me as well as being rewarding for him.
Well, today I tried my best not to resort to treats in my hand and did a lot of stopping when he pulled. Just feels like he's never going to stop pulling. As soon as he pulls, I stop, he turns around and walks to me and looks at me. Then we start walking again and he pulls instantly. Every. Time. I also periodically throw treats on the ground (which being winter I have to make sure it's somewhere where no deicer has been used) and then of course periodically have them in my hand for a quick reward. So I definitely cut down from when I first asked the question. Just will keep practicing every day and hope to have progress, even a little bit of progress in the next month or so would be wonderful. He will finally be back on his normal food in the next couple of days so I can make him some yummy high reward treats. Maybe that will help too. I just want to enjoy walking my puppy.
It does take a long time our older dog was a nightmare to walk (think wrestling the 2yo 28kg dog to keep control well off the path when a dog, person, anything comes past or he'd take a flying leap at it). And he wasnt interested in food treats - nothing could contain that extreme excitement except making him look at something boring as the dog etc went on the path behind us. If he calmed down he could look and went from there took years - but he had not been walked for months before we got him as he had been too strong so they gave up on him. For him he improved enough to walk with no distractions and bikes were ok in the first year we had him. Then we went to dog obedience and he was the one making all the noise BUT it helped and eventually if he got excited and I told him off he'd sit (as Id been makign him sit as others walked past). And heel I had to make him heel for so long. But once he did heel he was allowed to walk ahead a little as long as the lead wasnt tight at all. I sounded like a nutcase when walking coz it was no no no (or equiv) then GOOD BOY then no what are you doing no GOOD BOY. I would have LOVED to have been able to bribe him with endless food then wean off. Thats why with the puppy we started at obedience as soon as we could and Im happy to use food til she is older and more reliable - they do encourage us to walk fast though to keep the puppy moving and not enough time to get too bored and find something else to do.
Yes, I've noticed Coco is much easier to handle if walking fast. Kelsey, it can take a long time I remember Coco in the beginning. I walked up and down our road, streaming treats (from a bag). It would be every 2 steps, then every 5. I remember the day I boasted to my friends on facebook that I was counting 30 steps between each treat! When we adopted Coco, we almost missed out - he had gone out on trial to a family who returned him after one weekend, saying "he is great in the house, but he pulls SO hard on the lead". We were so lucky to get our chance I was never going to give up on him. This was the board up on wall at the ManxSPCA for volunteer walkers - Coco was red/blue which meant they had to ask before taking him out. I don't think the volunteers ever took him, only the staff. (ha ha this is MY "puppy picture")
My feeling is that the approach you outlined in your first post is fine, and basically what I did (and I have a dog who walks nicely on lead). Being in the Uk I was able to do it in very small chunks to start with and then let Molly off lead, but I realise you can't do that. I don't think it's a problem that Axel can see the treats in your hand to start with, though I probably wouldn't give the whole handful in one go. Gradually you can lengthen the time between rewards and move to keeping rewards in your pocket, but no rush.
What does your walk look like? Are you trying to get somewhere? My advice is, don't. Turn it into a game. Change direction, change speed. Skip, "fake out" your dog by changing and changing again. Make like a goalie and bounce then leap one way or the other. Set off at a run suddenly from stationary. Turn both ways, sometimes with him on the outside of the turn, sometimes on the inside. Make figure eights. Just play, play, play. Reward him with a ball after a few goes, if he's doing it well. Practice this game off lead as well as on. Actually, Shadow walks far better off lead than on because that's what we practice more. I've recently bought very short "handle" leads for heel walking practice, and they make a big difference. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01724YVOM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Because they are so short, it's a lot easier to be consistent. Above all, don't be stingy on the treats. Don't bribe, but streaming is absolutely fine to get past a difficult section. Then, turn around and walk it again. And again. And again. Until it's no longer difficult. One time, I crossed at a zebra crossing seven times because the dogs were finding it difficult! Two other things that helped me: 1. Stopping in order to give the treat at first, rather that delivering it on the move. This wiped out the immediate pull again after the treat. 2. Contrary to the comments above, I found setting off very slowly actually focussed the dog better. If I walked quickly, they'd start pulling almost immediately. Setting off at a crawl and then building it up gave me far better success. Good luck
Oh boy! I can relate, Axel is 13 months now and 41kg. But luckily he is very food motivated. So I do pull out the treats and stream line them when we come across dogs or people. He is pretty bad for barking at people walking towards us, so stream lining treats really helps. I also feel a tad bit silly when I'm walking him now. With all my praising. I started to praise him by kneeling down and saying good boy and giving him lots of pets and we exchange kisses lol. I am still rewarding with treats but not as much as I'm trying to follow @snowbunny suggestion with not bribing him so much. Thankfully he loves pets and kisses and hugs a lot too. This really is a learning process for me. My other dog Odie is 3kg, so walking him is a breeze, though he generally doesn't pull anyways.
Aw Coco landed the perfect home when you found him! So you stream lined treats often on your walks to train him for loose lead walking? Its so interesting how each dog learns so differently. I'm trying really hard not to bribe him. But I would be lying if I didn't say that it is incredibly hard. I'm trying to do 50/50 but if I'm honest I'm probably 70% bribing and 30% faking it or giving him pets and kisses etc. Which is improvement from day one when I posted this. As I was 100% bribing. Baby steps...
Thank you for your insight ! I have to remind myself too that he is still just a baby in an adult body and this is going to take sometime. Need to cook up some high reward food now that he's officially better from upset tummy issues. I feel like it will motivate more then kibble.
Lately due to the weather our walks have probably been incredibly boring to him. Just a neighbourhood walk. It's a loop walk and it's all on a sidewalk. With people walking by occasionally and cars driving by. Walking by houses with barking dogs or people working in their yards. There is a part mid way on our walk that I let him do a lot of sniffing. So the first part of our walk is terrible, he's full of energy and at his worst. But least he isn't peeing on everything anymore haha. Then we get to the fun part where I let him have his sniffing time which lasts for about 15 minutes until we reach houses again. Then it's back to trying to get him to focus on me and keeping a loose lead, which is finally where I feel ok he's doing alright. I'm sure it's because he's had some mental stimulation so he's not full of energy anymore. I've been looking at leashes that even have handles mid way as well. I didn't know I could just buy an attachement. I'll have to see if our local store has any. I really really REALLY want to stop using the halti. He doesn't mind the halti at all, infact, pretty sure he doesn't even know he's wearing it. But for my own peace of mind I don't want to use it anymore. But I simply cannot hold him back if he doesn't have it on, he chokes himself if he doesn't have it on and I worry so much about the damage he can do to his trachea. I do those games you described if we are off lead but I have never tried it on lead. Definitely worth trying! I have been trying hard not to bribe him anymore either but it really is hard not to cave when I get frustrated. But I am certainly trying! Thanks everyone for your suggestions!
There's nothing wrong with using a lure on occasion to get past difficult parts of your walk. Remember that whenever you increase difficulty (through distance, duration or distraction), you need to go back a few steps in your training approach. Which means that, if there's a lot of smells (distraction), you need to make it easier for him in other ways. So a lure (bribe) there may be appropriate, even where it's not in other places. But, rather than thinking of it as a failure, recognise it as a training opportunity and use that difficult section to start fading the lure. Walk back and forth along it, doing a normal fading routine. Start with the treats on his nose, luring him past the smells. Then, lure with that hand but feed from the other. Then, just pretend to have the treats in that hand, and make it obvious you have none, feed from the other etc etc. You can absolutely keep the rate of reinforcement high without bribing, though. Just keep the treats out of his sight. The easiest way to do this may be to have a handful of kibble in your right hand (assume he walks on the left), by your waist, and take a piece of this in your left hand to feed him every few paces.
Well it has been a week since I posted this thread. I've been sick with bronchitis and pneumonia for a few weeks now but still dragging my butt out everyday to practice walking. Today was -14 Celsius. Brrrr. I was very impressed with Axel this morning, it was like he was finally starting to get it. I'm hoping a few more weeks of practicing then I will try with just the flat collar on and see how we do. Just so nice to finally have progress! The last half the walk I was able to hold the leash with just my pinky and there was no pulling. Even when we got to a small park I was letting him have some sniff time and was sticking by my side the entire time. But I also want him to know he gets his sniff time so I kept saying 'go sniff' and eventually he got it and he had lots of fun sniffing around. Came across what I thought was dog kibble on the ground, I think Axel thought the same. He took one lick, lifted his front paw, turned his head in disgust and stuck his tongue out, I looked and it was deer poop. Haha. He isn't really a scavenger thankfully! Came across a melted snowman with carrots all over the place. He gave it a sniff and walked away. All in all it was such a nice walk!
