@Emily I thought it was a good idea till i started triying to add it up myself Im going back to denial
Truth of the matter for us is that working full day is the way we can afford a nice house, big yard and all the expenses that come with giving both our cats and now our dog everything that they require. I come from a home where my parents loved their dog intensely and were home with them all day but they were poor and the dogs could not go to the vet when required, they ate poor quality food and had fleas. I will not keep an animal like that and being able to do both at the moment is not a possibility. They are all on the best food for them and no expense is spared on health care and wellness. We don't have children so all our attention and love is focused on our animals, pathologically so at times. We are both home loving introverts and DH's family live in another city, mine are all deceased. Our animals are our family and besides each other, our best friends. My best friend has recently moved away for work. But we do not have doggy day cares here and experienced dog walkers do not abound. We can easily find someone to house sit but dog walkers are usually school or uni students that are available in the same hours as us, they are there for people who can't or don't want to walk their dogs. And I really don't want this to sound dramatic because I am disappointed more than anything else, but however nicely or indirectly it is stated it is clear that the overwhelming belief here is that the way we live with our dog is unacceptable and we do not deserve to be dog owners and that unless there was something emotionally unstable or cognitively impaired about us or our judgement we should never even have considered owning a dog. And to be honest, I can understand that because in many ways that is how I feel about people who own dogs or cats where the belief is that love is the most important thing, not nutrition or vet care. So it is a hierarchy where dog owners of different beliefs judge others, and that is how human nature (something I do know about) works. It is not malicious, mostly, it is depended on what your value and belief system is and on this forum I have seen many many very kind people who just have a different belief and value system and that is absolutely your right and I aspire to be able to say I provide that to my dog one day, but this is not that day. And so this forum is not where I belong because I know that my posts are going to continue distressing others and posts about how inappropriate my dog (not mine specific but in general) lifestyle is will continue to make me feel ashamed and unworthy of being a dog owner. And I don't want to feel like that, I know that my dog lifestyle is not the best, ideal or what it should be, so I already know that and it already causes discomfort and guilt. But I am not giving Harley away and right now if I could make a simple change for the better of her lifestyle I would, so I am stuck in Purgatory. Thank you all for your warmth and kindness, and Pippa I have read your website in entirety, it is a brilliant resource. Thank you all for being so kind with your knowledge and resources. Admin, I will PM you directly.
Same! I just told OH how much we spend and his response was "well you spend £30 a month on your eyebrows and they're much less worthwhile that Stanley". Oops
Brilliant. My OH is a hard nosed business owner and made me do a spreadsheet of the costs associated with a dog before we got him. I felt like i was going to a board meeting turns out its more expensive than you plan and he made me revise the spreadsheet the other day
I don't want anyone to feel ashamed either Jenny. But the fact remains that there is an argument - whether or not any of us agree with it - that owning a dog is something that should only be taken when the circumstances are right. And that there can be situations, where a home is simply not suitable for a puppy. My personal view is that a full time working family who cannot afford any kind of day care for their puppy might be one of those situations. That's a personal view but it is shared by many people. And it isn't an unreasonable view, even if it differs from yours. I don't want people to be judged here. I don't think that people are being necessarily being cruel when they leave a puppy alone, it probably depends a lot on the individual circumstance and on the puppy. There is no doubt that some puppies are very relaxed and adaptable, and it sounds as though your puppy has adapted well to your lifestyle. It's worth bearing in mind though, that other puppies may become quite distressed if isolated for long periods of time. Some of the people that write to me for help are having problems with puppies screaming all day, or failing to learn to be toilet trained. Problems that in my humble opinion may well be linked to long hours of isolation. I guess though, that in order to come to any conclusions on this, we'd need to look at some studies that investigated different rearing styles and sadly, I don't know of any. There are studies on separation anxiety, but they seem to all involve older dogs.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't see that as the overwhelming belief at all. I see people with different opinions. And each is entitled to them. One of the things I like about this forum is that we are able to discuss these things openly and without aggression For the record, I don't see a dog as being like a child. I kennelled my own dogs for many years, while allowing my kids to live in the house. Though at times it would have been nice to switch them around so I would be unlikely to agree on that score. I do understand though that many people disagree with me and see their dogs absolutely as family members. And I respect that view too. I am concerned about tiny puppies being left alone all day. And I feel it's okay for me to express that concern. Though it's important to recognise that there is no real evidence to support it. I don't think anyone should be ashamed if they disagree with me. Anymore than I should be ashamed for kennelling my working gundogs. These are opinions, not facts I hope you'll stay, but I understand if you feel uncomfortable. Sometimes these debates can be hurtful. I understand that too.
I just don't feel that's fair. I've found this forum to always be helpful, kind and understanding. And you can't just say "the dog will cope". My dog wouldn't have. For the first 2 months we had him he cried as soon as he couldn't see you - even if you just nipped to the loo. I'd video him if I desperately needed to pop to the shop and he'd cry and howl the entire 20 minutes I was gone. Should I just have left him to cry and gone to work for 8/9 hours? Of course not. It's great that your dog copes with your arrangement - but I don't think it's fair to shame the rest of us who's dog didn't cope with being left made arrangements to suit that.
We both work full time, granted this can be changeable, depending on whether OH is on a contract or not. My hours are flexible, I can work a bit from home, although I also have some very early starts! We make it work though. The dogs are our absolute priority. We don't have any dependants so that makes it a little easier. We have raised 2 puppies within the scenario above. We we got Benson, I was off work until he was almost 5 months old, then back to work for a phased return working a few days per week. We used holiday to stretch this so Benson very gradually got used to me not being around so much. We also brought in the services of a dog walker and he took Benson out at 6 months old for 2 gentle 30 min walks per day, roughly 11am and 2.30pm. At 6 months his routine was 6.30am play and training until 7am. 7.30am breakfast. He then sometimes went for a walk in the paddock, depending on our morning demands, sometimes he wanted to snooze for an hour. 11am picked up for his morning walk, then a light lunch and a kong. Crated until 2,30pm then the 2nd walk. He had frozen kongs whenever in his crate. Benson still loves his crate, we never ever have had a problem leaving him in there. We also have CCTV to monitor. Someone was then home at around at 4pm. If I was home early Benson would be out of his crate after his 2nd walk. I would then play/train for a bit then he would be crated for a snooze before OH came home, and I would then do an extra hour of work or two in our office upstairs. Sometimes my mum or dad would pop by and stay an hour or two, they live 2 minutes away by car, just in the next village. They are both dog savvy and just love our dogs, which really helps! We also have the advantage of an enormous garden, wildlife area, 3 acre fully enclosed paddock, fields and walks on our doorstep. It works because we work out a schedule each weekend for the next week for the dogs, now we have 3, ensuring they are never left for more than 1.5 hours in the morning, and 3 in the afternoon, however note this is as ADULT dogs.
Attitudes towards leaving dogs/puppies alone all day must be changing, because 10 years ago there was maybe one doggy daycare in Wellington, now there are dozens across the region. And dog walkers, that's a thing now! Dogs are not most cats, they want human company. Xena doesn't suffer from separation anxiety and is happy to be left alone for a few hours here and there, but when I'm home and doing something down the other end of the house, she'll generally park up next to the baby gate and wait for me to come back to the living area. A dog might be able to cope with being alone all day, but that's not a life.
It is interesting to note that there are regional difference here too. Many of us on this forum are in the UK. I believe it is much more common for dogs to be left all day in different parts of the world. Often with access to outdoors via some kind of dog door.
Thank you for your reply Pippa and as I said in my post there are many many kind and helpful people here willing to overlook a difference in belief. But it isn't actually a debate, because I also believe that dogs should not be left on their own for long periods of time. And although there may not be peer reviewed, controlled experiment academic evidence to support that belief there is an overwhelming amount of qualitative anecdotal evidence that does and that carries value. I made the decision knowing that if I didn't I would live my whole life without the love of my own dog. Things change and maybe, one day I will be able to provide optimum care. So mostly my reaction is my own guilt and shame over knowing that those of you who strongly believe that someone who works all day and can't provide alternative human contact shouldn't have a dog are right.
I have found that, here in Melbourne Australia, it is very common for dogs to be left outside in the back yard when the humans are out so when I first read (on this forum) of people leaving there dog inside I was shocked! We have a relatively small yard with water, a kennel (that we put a bed and blankets in) and access to shade. Ella sometimes stays outside when we go out but other times we leave her in the house. A lot of this depends on the weather, the time of the day, what Ella's done for the day so far (e.g. if we've just been for a long walk and training session then we know she just wants to sleep on the couch for a few hours so we leave her inside but if it's a nice cool morning and we haven't been for a walk yet, she likes to hunt for her breakfast in the grass or the sandpit so we leave her outside). Another interesting point to consider is what a breeder may allow. We had to provide information of our work hours, what we planned to do in the early months and how many hours we anticipated leaving our puppy/dog alone.
This I find interesting. The reason being, is that I know Benson could be left 7 hours a day...5 days a week. He is such a tolerant dog. You could even argue...but he likes his crate, he is happy there, we can leave him all day. No, absolutely we don't. Why? Yes he has grown into a stable, content, curious, relaxed...well perfect dog. He trusts us and his world completely. An example is, my mum has been very poorly, basically she broke her leg, and this has really knocked her back, confidence wise. My parents came round yesterday for dinner, mums first trip out, a bit of a hassle getting her wheelchair in, you can imagine the scene! What was lovely was that she was met with three happy, but perfectly calm dogs. Not disturbed by the wheelchair, just vying for mums attention. Benson carefully took mums sock off and washed her toes, Bramble snuggled gently on her lap, whilst Casper curled up at her feet. Now my point is, we had three calm, content dogs, not desperate for attention, jumping around, barking...A rescue aged 8, Benson 3, and Bramble just turned 1 year old. I just couldn't wish for more from them. I believe this is because of how the two youngsters have been reared, and how the older dog has managed to adapt.
You are obviously sad, and I am very sorry about that. My intention in raising this topic in a separate thread was bring the issue out in the open, rather than have it simmering under the surface or causing tension as it has done in several recent threads. Many people dive into puppy ownership without realising what is involved, and discussing these issues can help raise awareness of the challenges of raising a puppy while you work. I also wanted to create a thread that people could be directed to for advice and tips if they work full time. And I think some of the posts here have been helpful in that respect. It is very hurtful to feel that there is an implication that you are not doing the best for your dog. As someone who works their dogs, supports tail docking for working spaniels, and for many years kept their dogs outdoors, I have been on the receiving end of that one many times. But at the end of the day, we each have to do what we feel is right. If my advice counts for anything, I would say you are nearly over the stage when many puppies need a lot of attention and your dog is clearly loved and well cared for. I don’t think anyone here would suggest you part with a dog that is over eighteen weeks old, and has formed a strong bond with his owner. Nor would we wish you to leave the forum because you are in a difficult situation. Try to look forwards and not back and just do the best you can with your circumstance as they are. You never know what changes there may be in the future - life can take some funny turns.
@Harley Quinn - I hope you do stick around - your input on how you juggle a puppy/dog & full time work is most helpful to a lot of people.
I think over the years peoples attitudes to dogs have changed, they see them as family rather than pets. My grandparents are in their eighties and are currently on lab number 6 and have worked full time and not worked with their dogs. When they worked there was not really any such thing as a dog walker and it was normal for people just to leave their dogs. I dont even think people really considered it fr they have told me and all their dogs have been fine well adjusted awesome dogs. My grandad actually laughs at me when i tell him how much I worry and plan for Alfie, he says hes a dog he ll adapt. Dont mistake me he is a bloke who adores his dogs ( i tjink some days he liked them better than his children) but he views them differently i think. As I said I wouldnt leave alfie for 8 hours a day as quite apart from anything else I think he d need the loo desparately! If he was kennelled outside with another dog that might be different though. Please don't leave the forum l. I personally dont judge you. I think you d realise if yoyr dog was unhappy and it doesnt sound like she is.
I'm wary of anyone who fixates on the price of a dog, or even breeders who list the prices of their puppies directly on their websites. The cost of the dog (whether breeder or rescue adoption fee) is in reality irrelevant compared to the cost of keeping a dog over his/her lifetime. It might be relevant to your bank account for the next six months, but compared to the lifetime of a dog...irrelevant. The problem I've found when having the cost discussion with newbies is that they simply don't believe me. Or they think I'm a sort of nutty anomaly who spends too much on my dogs - and they may be right! But I think it's mainly people don't want to face it - I just did a Google search and apparently it costs £230,000 to raise a child in the UK, but that doesn't stop the majority of people from doing it. Although maybe I shouldn't cite that number as it makes our dogs look downright economical. And the teenage stage is shorter with a lot less chance that your dog will wreck your car.
We were lucky when we both worked every day for long hours. The dogs would be home alone until 11am then my Mum and Dad came two days a week and MIL two days a week. The other day they went to doggy day care. For this reason we always had small dogs - the oldies wouldn't have managed a bigger dog. As soon as we retired we got Tatze. The parents also picked up the kids from school and made our meals - and left tins of cake which they made while they were here. Spoilt? Yes we were. I miss them all every day. ..
I spend a fortune - but mostly out of choice rather than necessity. The Guide Dog puppies cost nothing, they have absolutely everything provided - but I still spend lots of money on them every week, I love buying toys, beds, you name it! ...
I was aware when I started this thread that it might be contentious. I just want to thank you all for keeping this civilised and discussing this difficult topic so objectively. I've only had to remove one rant.
