What you describe is hunting. Is he starting to free hunt whilst you are doing training his retrieving, sit/stay, walking to heel? Or is this during free running, mooching about, albeit with a long line attached?
Yes If you continue to try and recall her when she is sniffing and she ignores the whistle or voice, she is learning she can do what she likes. The only other way is when she ignores your 'command' (others would say cue) is to go and fetch her and reward when you are back to the original place you called her, but that might come later when you are proofing. The thing you want to do now is to make the recall a habit, so you do it when you know she will recall. Make the reward worthwhile as well!
You don't need to walk in boring areas, take her to a safe but interesting place and ignore, just keep turning away from the way she is heading and she will run to catch you up, reward that.
Ooh I am sorry Stacia I am still v confused! Sorry I am being so slow! So, we've been working in slightly easier places and the recall has got up to 100% when not hunting a scent. I've been using roast chicken, rewarding heavily and can now recall away from fun people, playing with other dogs, staring at kids playing etc. So I was hoping that the recall was already a habit, and thought I was at the stage when we should start proofing it against animal scent because that seems to be the only situation where it still fails. But I didn't know how to do this so asked my original v long question. The fact that her recall doesn't work when she gets a scent that she starts to hunt on, does that mean I am not ready to proof against that yet, and just need to carry on doing the same easier training that I was doing in the less-hunty field for longer, as it's clearly not ingrained enough yet? That's why I am confused - to me the fact that she can't do it means that it needs working on in that context somehow, but you are saying the fact she can't do it means we shouldn't ever try in that context yet? If that is right, how will I know when the recall is 'habit' and she is ready to be called off a scent she wants to hunt? Do I just test it say once a month during frenzied sniffing and if it doesn't work do another month of the easier training? I guess I am asking, do you mean if I do enough rewarded recalls in situations that are easy for her, at some point she will be able to do a hard recall away from hunty scent without me specifically training that somehow? Argh sorry I am so confused - I think I really misunderstood when I read Total Recall! Thanks so much for your help
That works nicely if there is not a scent that she wants to hunt. She runs along close to me, checking in, getting the odd retrieve, sit stay, tennis ball throw, stop whistle etc, always running to catch me up when I change direction if she has been sniffing something. But if she happens to find a scent that excites her (which is infrequent in our boring field, more frequent in our rabbity field in specific areas) I don't exist to her. I could leave the field and go home and she wouldn't notice till 5 mins later I suspect! Me changing direction or whatever wouldn't have any effect. The only thing I can do is grab the training line, put her on the short lead and physically drag her away which I don't like doing but better than letting her start to hunt.
Thanks Heidrun. It varies - I generally try to do all my training away from areas that might be likely to have a scent she wants to hunt. And I don't let her free run any more - sometimes I let her mooch a bit but always asking her for a stop, a hand target, a turn occasionally and I'm throwing treats. if she looks distracted and failing to come back when I ask her for a simple hand target or something I hold the end of the training line to try to make sure she can't start hunting. My disasterous walk the other day was when I didn't get the end of the training line in time. So, if she does happen to come across a scent that gets her excited (not that often, but more frequently this week after she ran off so I am getting more worried that she has got more obsessed with a specific animal), she is desperate to hunt and all I can do is put her on the lead and drag her away. She will be pulling hard and whining and quivering, and not listening to any command (sometimes she can manage a sit but staring after the scent, not looking at me). A helpful person here suggested training with a rabbit pen, which I can see might help to desensitise her to animal scent. Are there any other ways to help with this in my normal training? I thought perhaps going with her on the short lead and sitting by the rabbit holes and treating for any attention on me, until she is bored with the rabbit holes? But I tried this and am worried it intensified her desire for the scent. Thank you for your help, I really hope I can make a plan for this as it has been an underlying problem ever since we adopted indie
Not quite You first of all have to get 100% recall elsewhere and then start gradually on scent so that you succeed. No point in going to a scenty place and hoping for the best as that will teach her to ignore you. I am not into long lines, but maybe that might be the way for you as I can understand your difficulty. Have you tried a one to one gundog trainer to help you?
It sounds like you've done so well with your recall, and you can call her away from very distracting situations already! I don't have as much experience with this as the other people on the thread, so maybe this won't help, but I had a couple of ideas which you could try to manage the situation for now: Can Indie sit at a distance or stop? Until you've proofed the recall you could ask her to stop or sit until you can get closer? If Indie can keep still for a few seconds, it gives you time to find the end of the line. Lucky was exactly how you described Indie when he saw other dogs, whining, pulling, barking, quivering with excitement etc. and way over threshold. I found that pulling him away would just increase his frustration, so I literally put a piece of chicken under his nose and lured him away, until we were at a distance where he could think. It's not a long term solution though. I found individual training really helpful - we did have one bad trainer before we found the right one for us. So, if you do find someone, I'd check how much experience they have prey driven dogs. We worked with one trainer for 6 months and made no improvement at all. I thought it was our fault, but it was really that she had no idea how to work with a dog like mine.
Ah ok, thank you that is a bit clearer. So yes, I think we are at 100% when there is not an animal scent. So I wanted to now gradually start on scent, but wasn't sure how to go about it. It seems to be an all-or-nothing thing - she either sniffs with mild interest and can be recalled, or, she sniffs with mild interest that quickly turns into frenzied hunting where she goes deaf and my recall has no hope of working, and I have to drag her away on the training line. And its hard to tell which it's going to be. So I couldn't work out how I should go forward with it so that's why I asked the question at the start but might not have worded it well. yes we went to a one-on-one gundog trainer for one session but we didn't get on well, we were in a really scenty field next to a dual carriageway and it was really stressful. I might try another one closer to us who trains at a rugby club grounds, so should be easier in terms of scent.
Sounds just like the 3 trainers I went to, their only suggestion after paying a lot of money for old rope was that Charlie would ALWAYS have to be kept on lead for the rest of his life or to use barbaric methods. I wonder what those so called "trainers" would say now. x Keep going you are doing a great job, you will get there. xx
Thank you! Indie can sit on a stop whistle, but again not when getting an exciting scent, so any situation where recall wouldn't work, stop wouldn't work either unfortunately. I have tried luring indie away with yummy treats but when in hunting mode, she won't even take warm roasted chicken in front of her nose - all she wants is to hunt so perhaps my first goal should be to desensitise her to animal scents using a pheasant pen or something - I will try as you suggest to find a good one on one trainer who has experience with 'hunty' dogs. You are right, some trainers seem to expect that better treats or a tennis ball will solve all problems and it just isn't the case for some dogs!
Thank you Helen I just feel lost when I don't have a 'plan', and this recall away from scent thing has really got me confused!
Lara, I don't think you will ever desensitize your dog against the scent of game. She is half pointer. Pointers are hunting dogs with an immense desire to find game. As an owner of five hunting spaniels I have some idea of how driven these dogs are. Anyone who has never owned and trained such a dog is in for a shock. Two of my dogs are rescues and the first and most important thing I worked on is to get a solid bond with those dogs. That meant months and months of hand feeding them during training. They got nothing out of the food bowl, unless we were doing food bowl training, but everything came from me as a reward during training. I had a training plan in my mind where I worked not just on recall but also the stop whistle. I used food bowl training for this. I drew on absolutely everything I had in my tool box, including clicker training and place board training. I particularly concentrated on retrieving training so that the dogs would get a physical workout during training as much as a mental workout. This is particularly important as I wasn't taking the dogs for conventional walks. My best advice would be to find a good gundog trainer. There is a lot to learn when you are dealing with a very hunt driven dog. You will have to understand why your dog does what in certain situations so that you can anticipate its next move. I do sympathize with you. There is nothing more frustrating than a bog off dog.
Agree, it was because of Heidrun's advice I hand fed Charlie for months and months too, he got ALL of his food and juicy treats from my hand and he had to work for that food, nothing went in his bowl this really helped build our bond. I still do this when I am training for stop whistle, clicker training, LAT so only what's left goes in his bowl. As for desensitising, we sat near deer, pheasants, ducks you name it but Charlie still gets that scent and goes, but granted he can sometimes be verbally recalled and occassionally he decides to come straight back without any cue, at that point we almost throw a party As Heidrun says, nobody can trully understand how difficult these dogs can be especially rescues as so much damage has already been done. At least Indie likes to retrieve, Charlie does not so working on that could be the key x
Ah thanks Helen, yes she sort of likes to retrieve, but obviously likes to hunt more. Did you find that desensitising near animals help you and Charlie? I started this week sitting near rabbit holes but it seemed like it got her more frustrated and obsessed with getting at them. But perhaps I need to persevere
Thank you! Yes that sounds good advice. It's hard work I already feed her most of her food by hand as training treats, and we don't go on 'normal' walks anymore really. I try to use retrieves but they only work if she hasn't got a sniff of something exciting. Can I ask what you mean by food bowl training? Just using her food in her bowl as a big jackpot reward for a recall or stop? I will try to find a good trainer - I feel like I'm putting in so much effort but nothing's changed when exciting scents are concerned. So its definitely time for a new plan. Thank you for your advice
We find that if the deer, pheasant or whatever is at a bit of a distance we can get him to sit and look and not ping about on lead like a lunatic, but if it's nearer well, he pings about on lead like a lunatic Charlie is now 6 years old and I'm not sure we will ever really sort it out, however we do persevere. We manage him as we spot his body language and mostly know what is going to happen, sometimes we get in there in time other times we don't. I'm not too sure about sitting near rabbit holes would help, maybe walking back and forth past them help her frustration levels a little?
What do you actually mean by that? I think you will have to find somewhere less exciting to train. The field where you go to now might be boring to you but if it is rabbity with lots of scent then it is too distracting for Indie. Food bowl training is just a method of training the dog to still follow your cues in the presence of something it really wants - her food. If you can send your dog to a food bowl with some food which is 30 yards away and stop her on a verbal cue or with the stop whistle then you are a big step closer to having control. The aim is not to ignore the food bowl but to still listen to your cues. That sort of control translates to anything the dog wants including pheasants and rabbits. Rather than trying to desensitize your dog to game, which I believe is impossible, you teach her in very small steps and over many months to still follow your cues regardless of what temptations might be around.
