I had a worrying chat with the vet yesterday and wanted to get extra opinions from people here. Quite frequently (probably more than once a week) Jess has odd jerky leg spasms when she is lying down. The spasms last for maybe a minute or two at a time, and always occur when she is seemingly relaxed. These have happened off and on for several months I suppose but she seems in such good health otherwise that I didn’t think it was anything to worry about. While the spasms are happening she looks anxious but she doesn't seem to be in pain or particular distress and once the spasms stop she is fine and usually goes to sleep. I’ve not been able to discern any trigger in her food or treats or walks. I managed to catch some video of this happening yesterday and took it to the vet, who was quite concerned and thought it might be a minor form of epilepsy. I have put it on youtube for you to take a look at: She looks particularly anxious here as I was looming in her crate with a camera in one hand, but broadly I think this captures the behaviour pretty accurately. You can see that when I put my hand on her she stops twitching, but starts again when I take my hand off. That is always the case and is one of the reasons I didn't think this was likely to be a neurological issue at all, but something like a muscle spasm or cramp. But perhaps not? My current vet is a small practice that doesn’t have in-house MRI etc so I’m going to complete a seizure diary for the next couple of weeks, try to get more video and then take her to a different vet for diagnostic testing. In the meantime, I wondered if anyone here has any experience of seizures of this type? I have looked through past messages and read about other members' experiences with epileptic dogs, particularly @Karen and @MF. Jess's seizures (if that is what they are) are much less extreme but they do fit within the definition/description of focal epileptic fits : https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-owners/epilepsy/ Obviously I’m horribly worried and hoping that there is a much less frightening explanation. I’m also feeling guilty that I’ve not taken it more seriously until now, and wondering if perhaps there is a link between this behaviour and the behaviours that I’ve attributed to anxiety (agitation, barking, noise sensitivity). I'd really appreciate any advice from others who may have seen similar behaviour in their dogs, whether attributable to epilepsy or (hopefully) something else.
Hey, as a relatively new puppy mum I dont have any advice or experience, I just wanted to say I hope you are okay and its a rotten situation to be worrying x
Hi , I have had experience of owning a dog who suffered seizures , and no doubt you know that there are various types and various degrees of severity . Many people expect the dog to lose consciousness , which of course they often don't do . Seizures almost always occur when the dog is relaxed , just before sleep . I really hesitate to offer an opinion , as it is only a Vet who can do this, but you do right to keep a diary , which is what I did , and the fact that you can film is even better . Sorry that you are so worried , and wishing you all the best x
I have had an epileptic dog. Your dog, to me, looks more as if it is an invitation to play in this context. But of course I haven't seen her doing it at other times so cannot really make an informed judgement.
Hi there, that certainly doesn't look like the seizures Poppy had... Also from the video it doesn't look to me as if Jess is concerned at all. Does she do this when she doesn't know you are watching her? It's odd behavior, and you are absolutely right to keep a diary, but as I say it's nothing like the seizures I have seen - which frightened both Poppy and me. I hope for you both it's nothing serious, and I would visit a neurological/ epilepsy specialist for advice. I found that having someone talk to me who was a real expert was a huge help. Good luck, let us know how you go on.
Thanks all, that is very reassuring. I was worried that this might be the kind of behaviour that dogs show before having a generalised seizure but it doesn't sound like that's the case at all. You are all right that Jess doesn't seem particularly bothered by it, which is why I'd not been much concerned either. It was the vet's response that worried me, as I'd not really considered epilepsy at all. But I'm glad to know that this behaviour doesn't look familiar to those of you who've had dogs with epilepsy/seizures. I will go back to not panicking, but will keep a diary of frequency/circs and then maybe consult a specialist once I have a fuller picture. Many thanks for the responses, it is so helpful to get input from other dog owners - and too easy to panic otherwise!
Oh - just on this point - yes, she does it when she's not being watched. I don't have a home camera set up so don't know if she does it when I'm not around but she certainly does it when I'm not watching her.
I also had a dog who suffered from epilepsy. As others have said, there are various forms and what you are doing now is right, keeping a diary etc. We did that with our dog, also video'd his seizure for a vet who was researching epilepsy in dogs. What your little Jess is doing is nothing at all like BJ's seizures, although he also had a form where he remained conscious and aware. I hope you get to the bottom of what is happening here, though it doesn't really look as if its bothering Jess at all. Best wishes.
I'm interested to know why your vet considered this to be a seizure? Did you show your vet the video? When I first saw your video after reading that you were concerned it was a seizure, I immediately looked for all the signs of a seizure... and of course I thought I saw dilated pupils and the leg jerks. Although what I saw was nothing like my dog's seizures. But then, after reading @Stacia's comment, I relooked at the video and saw signs of invitation to play, no signs of seizure. The dangers of making a judgement based on a video and no other info! What I can share with you is my experience with my dog. He has grand mal seizures, and he has all the typical signs: starts with the rigors, then he collapses onto his side, his front and back legs start to move like a racehorse while he's on his side, his eyes shut tight and he throws his head back as far as it will go, he makes moaning, donkey sounds (apparently trying to breath through a restricted airway), his lips are pulled back as if he is snarling, and he froths at the mouth. There is nothing I can do to "snap" him out of it (like when you touch your dog, she stops jerking), although I do apply an icepack up and down his spine during the episode, which I believe does lessen the severity of the seizure. He has the seizure for about 1-2 minutes (feels like forever), then he "comes to" and is very confused, appears not to be able to see (eyes are black, just massive pupils) and comes right up to my mouth to smell me and then wags his tail. Then he gets up shakily and desperately needs to get outside to make a wee and sometimes a poo (he has weed during a seizure, too), walks like a drunk and has difficulty balancing when he lifts his leg to wee. He is ravenous and wants his breakfast ASAP. After that he wonders around aimlessly for about an hour and doesn't want any cuddles or interaction, anti-social. Thereafter he goes to sleep for a longer time than usual, a very deep sleep. When he wakes up, perhaps 4 hours later, he is completely back to normal. We didn't medicate him for two years, vet said seizures weren't frequent or long enough -- he was having a seizure every 4-6 months. But two years later at the age of 3.5, he had two seizures over the course of two days and then the vet said to start medication. He's on Potassium Bromide, 1.4ml (extremely low dose for his weight, but his blood levels are correct at that dose -- we believe cos he eats a raw diet he doesn't have salt (Sodium Chloride) competing with the KBr). He has not had a seizure in almost a year -- we are delighted!!!! He is now 5 years old. However, when I look back at the times he had a seizure and at records of what he had at the time, they coincided with ingesting dewormers or anti-flea stuff. So, for example, a few hours after ingesting Milbemax, he had a seizure. The last time he had two seizures, they occurred within a couple of months after he took Bravecto -- that was last year after having not had a seizure for 7 months. Since we've stopped all anti-flea/tick stuff, he's been fine. So I'd suggest that, as part of your seizure diary -- if in fact your dog is having seizures -- that you also note when you administered any type of medication or dewormer or anti-flea/tick stuff so that you can present it to the vet when they make a diagnosis. I hope that you work out why your dog behaves like this so that you can stop worrying. Hopefully it is just an invitation to play! It's a good idea that you take her to a vet who is experienced in neurological issues and epilepsy as they will be able to request the tests needed to make a proper diagnosis. A proper diagnosis is what you need. Please keep us updated on how you get on.
Yes, the vet saw the video: we had a routine appointment (for some flea and worm treatments actually, which in light of your comments I will hold off on applying for a month or two!) and I'd made the video in the morning so just showed it to the vet on my camera for her opinion. I'm not sure what made her think it might be epilepsy. Poor Snowie, those seizures are awful. Terrifying for you both. I feel a bit silly posting Jess's behaviour as though it's in the same category. It really does help to get other people's experiences. I don't think that what she is doing is an invitation to play but it certainly - fortunately - sounds nothing at all like the grand mal seizures that you describe. I hope your dog stays seizure free from now on.
I do deworm Snowie every 3 months as he had a tapeworm infestation when he was 1.5 years old (when he had his first seizure). I have found a dewormer that doesn't seem to have adverse effects - Mediworm. But he has no fleas so I don't use anti-flea stuff. And few ticks in our area and no tick-borne diseases, so if I find one on him I remove it.
I just want to add - if your vet is taking this seriously, then you should listen to him/her rather than us. We can give you an opinion, but your vet actually knows Jess; we don't. If it were me, I'd get an expert's opinion sooner rather than later. Better safe than sorry.
I hope Jess is OK and I'm sorry you're worried about this. I have to say, if you'd not intro'ed the video the way you did, I would think she was just wanting to play...so clearly I'm useless in the diagnosis department! What really struck me in your video was how focused Jess' eyes are on you the entire time, which seems like a good sign. I had a toy poodle with mild epilepsy - he would have 2-3 seizures a month. His eyes would very noticeably zone out during an episode and remain that way for several hours after the seizure. He also wouldn't respond to me for quite a while afterwards. Not to say that Jess doesn't have a different issue or other form of epilepsy (better safe than sorry and consult your vet), but hopefully it isn't anything too serious and your vet can figure it out soon.
This is a good point. Along with the fact that she responds when I touch her it does seem to highlight that there's no loss of control there. And she doesn't seem to be affected afterwards either. So that's all good. But yes, better safe than sorry, you are not my vets and none of the above is veterinary advice etc. I'll pay much closer attention to it, keep a diary and get a second opinion. Thanks for all the input folks!
We've had a dog with epilepsy. It doesn't sound like Gypsy's fits. She would be out of it for an hour or so from first signs to recovery. One thing that we learned is that a dog can lead a normal active life between fits. You're doing a good thing by keeping a record and making videos as it gives the vet evidence to help with the diagnosis.
Please don't feel silly and feeling bad about comparing problems. Your dog is very important to you and your feelings and worry are as strong as anyone else's no matter the problem with the dog. The running joke in our family used to be: Snowie's nose is dry. Quick! Take him to the vet! We all want our dogs to be happy and feel incredibly responsible for their happiness and health -- and we feel incredibly guilty!! It was great that you posted that video for everyone to see, and I guess we all are curious to know what diagnosis you eventually get.
I have not been able to view your video but our lab Mia has recently started having seizures which are very upsetting to watch. She is fully conscious throughout the seizure and they last from maybe 2 mins to 5 mins our local vet diagnosed epilepsy. After keeping a diary for a few months Mia was referred to a neurologist where she had an MRI scan and spinal tap performed both of which came back clear. The neurologist however is not completely convinced that the seizures are epilepsy he thinks they may be caused by movement disorder (paroxysmal dyskinesia) which he said is often mis diagnosed as epilepsy. I have researched both conditions and tend to agree that Mia's symptoms although very similar to epilepsy are I think as a result of movement disorder. She is currently on a 6 month medication trial for epilepsy as the vet felt that this had to be ruled out first however she is still having seizures so the medication is having no effect. I know what you are going through and felt compelled to share our experience I hope you get a diagnosis soon.
@Mia I just wanted to express my sympathy to you , having had a dog with neurological issues , I can truly understand your worried , just wanted to wish you and your Mia all the very best x
My dog has seizures (thankfully going on one year seizure free now) and the vet said it takes time for the epilepsy meds to reach a therapeutic level in the blood - for potassium bromide (what Snowie is on) I believe it's about 3 months. Snowie indeed had a seizure soon after starting the meds. The specialist vet also said they look for a 50% reduction in seizures, that is a good result for them. (Of course 100% reduction is what we're looking for!) I'm sorry to hear how distressing it is for you and your dog. There is another thread on this forum that I *think* is about paroxysmal dyskinesia, which you can search for.
