so.... Its time to bite the bullet and do some proper, formal, loose lead training, which ive been putting off for months and also dipped my toe in and out of annoyingly for my poor Rolo and me. I have had a hell of a lot on lately but I know I need to knuckle down and get this trained. No one can hardly take him for a walk for me now as he pulls so much and he is getting stronger, but I need some serious help. I have read all the articles about stand still and wait until there is slack etc. Do i click when there is slack? Do i treat? or is continuing to walk the treat? My street is very distracting with kids, and passers by wanting to stoke him, Would it be unfair of me to try and attempt this training in our local off lead walking spot (the woods) because there are so many smells etc? Any other poignant tips will help me, I am at the end of my patience with life right now and the last thing I need is to be annoyed with myself when I am trying to walk my boy. It isnt fair on him or me! Also I probably havent trained a new behavior with a clicker in over 2 months do i need to recharge it?
You know, I'm less and less convinced by the "stop and don't do anything until your pup turns back to you" method. I did this with Willow and Shadow but it takes forever and is highly frustrating both for you and the dog. It may be "only" negative punishment, but it can be highly punishing, and I'm not OK with that. I've approached things a little different with Luna. Firstly, you must set your dog up for success. Which means starting in a very boring situation, and getting the behaviour perfect there before moving on. Introduce distractions slowly. Use great treats. You have to understand it is completely unnatural - and maybe even physically uncomfortable - for a dog to walk at your pace. So, cut your dog some slack. Get excited about a few short paces by your side and build it up gradually. You need to be clear what your requirement is. Mine are rarely on lead, and when they are around town, I want them to walk to heel without sniffing, peeing etc. If Rolo is on lead more, it's only fair that he gets to sniff around, without pulling. My adult dogs have two leads - a very short handle which is "absolutely no sniffing" and a lead that can be extended to 2m which means "walk at heel unless I release you to sniff". I've found, since having the handles, that W&S have really "clicked" to the difference. They also make it easier for me to be strict about what I want - it's very easy with a longer lead to be a bit fluffy about heel position, what constitutes a pull etc. @JulieT had some good advice, which was, hold the lead across your body as you normally would (loop in the right hand, holding the slack in your left) and, without putting any tension on the lead, anchor your left hand to your hip. The instant that hand is moved away from your hip, that is a "pull" and you need to deal with it. It's a very useful cue to you to help you be consistent. So, as to how I've approached it with Luna. I used a clicker at first just to mark the position I wanted. When she's in a good position, click and treat. I actually did this mainly off lead. I would toss the treat away from me, so she'd have to re-orient to me to get her next click. This is easy with a young puppy, I think, as they tend to want to stick by you. With an older dog, you may need to lure more. I didn't do the C&T for long, though, and I think, for me, the voice is more effective than the clicker when it comes to teaching heel, especially on lead. Once your dog has been rewarded a lot for being in that position (meaning, capture it every time he stands or walks in that position at home, on walks etc), you can start adding duration. Using your voice is really useful for this. With Luna, all the time she's walking at heel, I'm talking to her happily, telling her what an amazing girl she is, "good puppy, what a good girl, look at you walking so nicely, yeah!", smiling at her all the time. She responds really well to this and it's basically me saying "you're doing the right thing, a treat will come presently, if you keep it up", rather than the very precise click "that, right there that instant was amazing, and you'll get a treat in a second or two". Obviously, at first, the treats come rapidly, but by using your voice like this, you can keep your dog's interest and start to mix up your treat duration, once you have a solid behaviour. When it comes to places she struggles more, we go back to basics. If she surges forward, I walk forward "reeling her in" (that is, not allowing her to move forwards any more, so I have to keep a constant tension on the lead as I move towards her - I absolutely don't pull her back towards me) and, once I'm with her, I pop a treat under her nose and then walk back a couple of paces so she follows it back to my heel position. In the first instance, she gets the treat immediately, but I don't want to cause a chain of pull ahead, come back, get a treat, so I quickly move on to requiring one step at heel, then two etc after the lure before she gets the treat. I've found that, when something piques her interest, she'll now move ahead briefly but "self correct" to come back to heel. When she does this, she gets loads of verbal praise and a jackpot treat. The main thing is, you need to be absolutely, 100% consistent in this training. J doesn't get to walk the puppy on lead because he can't be consistent. If you have to walk on lead from A to B on lead before he's ready, then maybe look at using a different "device" to differentiate between loose-lead training and him being allowed to pull. Or, a harness that doesn't allow him to pull (which I'm not a fan of, but can be used as a tool outside of training). Otherwise, when you're not training, drive him to places he can be off lead immediately. So, as to your questions: I don't click for slack, I click for position, until that is learned. Remember the click is a very precise marker, so you need to be marking a precise "thing". If your criteria is simply a loose lead, I'd use my voice "yeah, what a good boy, well done!" as a continuation marker, rather than a click. Absolutely use treats to start with. They give a lot more information that what he's done is right at the initial stages. Over time, as I've described above, these treats can be spread out by use of the voice, and, as walking at heel becomes more of a habit, you can start to reduce the chatter, but don't be in a rush to do this. As I said, this is completely unnatural to our dogs, so they need a lot of praise and rewards when they're doing it right. Off lead, I'd work on focus exercises, reorienting to you. A clicker is brilliant for this. Standing still, click for any look towards you, toss a treat away from you so he turns away, then click for him turning back. You can't do anything without focus. If he can't cope with this game where you are, start in a less distracting place. Once you have that focus, you can start introducing easy cues - hand target, sit, whatever - to "test" his ability to think. Once he's in working mode, you can start training "come to heel", still off-lead. Use a lure to get him into your heel position, click and throw the treat away. Rinse and repeat. Do this just standing still for now, to make it easier for himOver a few short sessions, once he understands the "game", you can start introducing your cue, increasing the distance he has to move from to come to the heel position, add some walking in that position etc etc etc. All off lead. Reinforce, reinforce, reinforce. Once you've released him to mooch, continue to reward for him falling into step beside you. The focus test is a really good way of determining if your dog can learn something new. If he can't perform the most fun, basic behaviour (mine is a hand touch) then he's not going to be able to learn anything. If you feel yourself getting frustrated, take a deep breath, remind yourself that this is probably the most difficult thing possible you're asking him to do and if he's not getting it, it's because he can't rather than he won't. Work on some fun focus games (I love the "ready steady" game) and give him - and yourself - a break. Unlikely. He'll learn what it means after a couple of clicks followed by treats even if he has forgotten - which is unlikely in itself. Above all, try to make this fun fun fun. Use your voice and your body language. Get excited, tell him he's amazing. Use great treats when he's doing it. Change your pace, change your direction. Make it a "keep up" game rather than a "plod alongside me for hours on end" drill. Sorry, that was War and Peace
I find the best way with Mollie was changing direction, every time. I do also stop and get her attention back on me. Be sure they can't see the treats, this way you are rewarding the behaviour, not luring them. I talk to Mollie a lot in busy places, but less when it's not needed. Mollie is 6 months old now and she's really got it. Nn
@snowbunny Thanks Fiona, its just what I needed! in depth advice and a reminder to give myself and Rolo a break! He is only generally on lead when other people have to take him out. Because I drive to the woods and let him off to enjoy at his own pace. I am going to take this realllllly slow and hope to see small victories along the way. I may even ask my group trainer for some 1-2-1 so i can see it being executed too. Do you think training the focus and position will help with the excitement when he sees other dogs as I will of trained a focus and heel position response? or would you do specific LAT training? Also - Will this training be transferable for if others take him out???? @Boogie Thats good, Rolo is 8 months now and ive left it too late I worry I will struggle. Is Mollie allowed to be walked by others or just you for consistency during her guide dog training? Last but not least, do you have any ideas for difference devices I can use? to differentiate, as there are times he will need to be taken by other people i.e his daycare lady and my OH takes him 1 day a week into work and he is walked by all and sundry.
I don't have any advice to add - just wanted to say I hope you're OK Jyssica Sounds like you've had a lot on your plate lately x
Training focus helps everything. Without focus, you have nothing. Of course, like everything, you need to set him up for success, so expecting him to go from focussing on you in the middle of a empty field to focussing on you when a dog walks past in the street is too much. Work on focus, or LAT, at a distance from the distraction and gradually move closer. Dogs aren't good at generalising. Which is sometimes a handy thing. Because my DH lets the dogs pull, they often pull with him. It makes your training longer, and is intensely frustrating, but you can end up with a dog that walks nicely with you and pulls with other people. If no-one else walks him on lead until he's trained, though, or if everyone that walks him consistently follows the same methods, then you are far more likely to end up with a dog who walks nicely with anyone. I would use a flat collar for training, as long as he's set up in places where he won't lunge against it, and otherwise a comfortable Y-shaped harness like the ones here: https://www.dog-games-shop.co.uk/, plus a front-fastening harness for when you need to get him from A to B, or when other people are walking him. I bought W&S Perfect Fit harnesses after a horrific walk where I was "stuck" on the mountain with it getting dark because I had to have them on lead (after Shadow went off chasing a weasel), they were pulling like trains, and the only tools in my arsenal were the stop-start or about turn. I only used them once or twice with the front fastener, and I thought they were rubbish - the harness twisted uncomfortably as they pulled. I emailed the company and they were very helpful, indicating that the parts were too large and I needed a smaller size, but I never used the front fastener again. I feel the Y-shape design, whilst great for a back fastening harness, isn't conducive to a good front-fastener design. So, sorry, that's my only experience of using a front-fastening harness and it's not very useful! It's a great back-fastening harness, though, as it has wide straps, so it spreads the load if the dog lunges, preventing injury. With choosing a corrective harness, I'd want to ensure that the correction is purely mechanical; that is, it turns the dog so pulling is impossible, rather than tightening or pinching to inflict pain or discomfort. One other thing I remembered that helped me in the early days is stopping to give the treats, rather than giving them in motion. This stops the "yoyo" effect where you give a treat and the dog immediately surges ahead again.
@JenBainbridge Thanks A lot Jen! Things are getting back to normal now! My Dad had a heart attack (hes fine now, Stents are a wonderful invention), and my Nan who lives with my parents and my mum is her primary carer, has been in and out of hospital like its no-ones business so Ive had to help out my mum as much as possible, As well as working full time etc! This all meant Rolo's training was taking a hit. He has still had company etc but I havent been able to spent quality training time with him! Its nice to have time to get back on here to the friendly forum fam!
If he's learned that pulling works, then you will certainly have a bigger hurdle to overcome than if he'd never learnt that in the first place. Having said that, it's a very unusual Labrador indeed who never pulls at all, and even more unusual that he never, ever, ever gets to win a few steps forwards on occasion. I think walking nicely on lead and recall are the two huge hurdles in dog training, and the ones that can cause the most stress. Just take it one step at a time and you'll get there. As you said, celebrate the small victories and they'll soon start stacking up. I really don't think there's such a thing as "too late". I always think of rescue dogs who are rehomed at all sorts of ages, who still manage to learn new skills to fit in with their new families - and if you watch the displays from the rescue centres who perform at Crufts, how many of those dogs do you think did agility (or whatever) before they went into the rescue? It sounds like you've had a hard time. Don't worry, I'm not getting as much training as I'd like done with W&S at the moment, care of Willow's anxiety issues, the brown hairy terrorist and a shedload of work (I'm skiving a bit today!) but they'll be fine and we'll get back on track soon. Life happens
It's not 'too' late, but there is no doubt that training a young, strong teenage boy to walk nicely on a lead once he has learned to pull is very, very difficult. If you get it right when they are tiny, and what they learn right away is they get what they want by keeping the lead slack, it's a bit of a doddle. I agree with Fiona about the stopping when they pull thing. It's good advice in a way, and when Betsy or Charlie pull on their lead, I do stop. But they don't pull on their leads very often, just when excited. So I'll maybe stop once or twice in the whole walk (and they walk on leads a lot at least an hour a day) and that's all. An exercise where you have a frantic teenager pulling like crazy and you can't take one step without stopping or turning for the whole time you spend together on lead is like banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly, and it's probably worse for the dog. My top tip once you find yourself in this situation - young, excitable, strong, male, who can't walk on a lead - is train an off lead heel and then slowly put a lead on them - just slip a limited slip lead over his head for a few steps at a time. There are many, many advantages to this and it's by far the least painful way to go (for both you and the dog). You have to be really disciplined about it though, and train that off lead heel in more and more difficult places for it to really transfer to all the places where you'll have you dog on a lead.
@JulieT Thanks Julie, I am going to keep a diary for myself and Ive just had a eureka moment, the carpark at my work is the perfect place to do the training, and now its getting lighter I can feel safe when coming up here. No distractions after 5pm or weekends! That is where I will begin!
@snowbunny Hope you dont mind me asking 2378 questions, as undoubtedly I will. So ive decided to train heel as opposed to going to loose lead first. Is the pulling with other people going to undermine heel work? or does this not matter as much at this stage? Also If I drive him to my spot for heel training.. and remove his harness and lead, and replace with flat collar will this help differentiate. He doesnt like his harness or collar too much right now and runs away when I get either out, should i be building up a tolerance to them for him so its not miserable when he sees them? Thanks!
Just me, my husband and other puppy walkers. It's never too late! Bruce came to me at ten months pulling like a train, he was walking really well in four weeks. The secret is to be more determined than they are Mm
2378 is fine. Just make sure it's not 2379 - that would really be taking the Michael. If he's going to be walked on lead by other people, I would probably go down the route of putting him in a harness that doesn't let him pull while he's outside of the training environment. You may as well set yourself up for success as much as possible, too If you're concentrating on off-lead stuff for the moment, I wouldn't worry what he's wearing. Julie's suggestion of working on an off-lead heel and gradually introducing a limited slip lead (you can buy them here: http://tuffstuff-ltd.co.uk/p/23/limited-slip-lead) is a good one. Absolutely; put in on him a lot of times during the day, feed him something amazing and then take it off again straight away.
Perfect, Thanks! I am getting a bit mixed up from the originlal reply, is the perfect fit what you would use in this scenario, or if not, which type of harness would be best to opt for? Most of them claim anti-pull so I dont want to get it wrong and allow it when hes with others!
Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear. I would recommend a Perfect Fit (or the similar regular fleece harness from the same place) for walking him to train if he's likely to lunge in those environments. I don't recommend it as a pull prevention harness. - If, during training sessions, he's not going to lunge and potentially hurt his throat, just use a flat collar or limited slip lead. - If, during training sessions, there are likely to be interruptions outside of your control that could cause him to lunge and potentially hurt himself on a flat collar, use a back fastening harness, such as the PF (it has a back ring and an optional front one), for these sessions, to protect his neck. - For other times when he has to be walked A to B, or by others, use a different front-fastening harness that doesn't let him pull (as opposed to inflicting pain when he does). I wouldn't recommend a Y-shaped harness because they tend to twist on the dog, rather than turning the dog - and it didn't seem effective to me anyhow. I'm sorry, I can't recommend a front-fastening harness because I've not got any experience of any others.
Just to say, it's never too late. Coco failed his initial home trial with another family as "he was great in the house but pulled too much outside", they couldn't manage him. The staff at the ManxSPCA used to walk him on a Halti because he pulled so much. He HATES the Halti. It cut his nose! We use a harness with him. I used the stop-and-wait-for-loose-lead, and change direction, as recommended on here. He was 16 months old and pulled like a train - no exaggeration. He now walks brilliantly (for me). Less so for OH, because he lets him pull & can't be bothered stop/starting or about turning, but he is getting better even for OH. SO yes, it's hard to train a dog that's learned to pull, but it's very rewarding to do a whole walk on a totally loose lead.
You're not too late. It was the bane of my life too but I only just gave it really thorough attention at 10 months and we've cracked it in less than two weeks!
Thanks Debz which technique did you opt for? Did you train the off lead heal first or just the loose walking Thank you
I had these same issues with Harley. I couldn't use a harness or flat collar because she pulled so much it really hurt (I have spinal injuries). I started with the head collar and several times a day walked up and down my cul-de-sac until she could walk without pulling. I would turn around or cross the road (change direction) each time she pulled. The next few days I used the harness, then eventually a flat collar. I repeated the above pattern walking from my house, out of the cut-de-sac and onto the main road. Each week we were able to go a bit further. We can now walk from home to the shops (a good 10-15 min walk) with no pulling. I still use her harness for this walk as there is still the odd incident (cat jumps out or loud bang etc ) and she might lunge. She is 3 now and we started doing this when she was 7 months old. My fault for not training it earlier. Harley walks lovely for me and my dog walker, but still pulls OH and my daughter.
@Naya Thanks for the info! I have early onset rheumatoid arthritis, and it mainly effects my upper arms, so the pulling at the current level really hurts! My idea of taking him to off lead place is just a detterrent and not getting to the source of the problem! Its nice to hear when people say they now walk reasonably, it gives me hope!
