Hi all, Harvey is an entire male dog and is 3 1/2 years old. The decision to keep him entire was based partly upon online research and partly upon the recommendation of our vet. He was well socialised as a pup (and since) and, apart from the odd scary balloon, never had any behavioural issues towards other dogs. Then he was attacked, twice in a short period of time, by other male dogs. He bacame very wary of other dogs afterwards and we've but in a lot of work building-up his confidence again. This is just by way of a little background in case it is relevant. The issue that we are having at the moment is encounters with other entire male dogs. At one of the training classes that we attend we have now had two incidents where Harv and another entire male dog were passing each other, both on-lead, and had 'a bit of a spat'. In each case the other dog would start growling and slightly parting its lips and then Harv would respond with a full-on lunge at it with lots of barking. In my, very simplistic and with no formal training whatsover, view it seems likely to be a fear reaction based on previous experience - 'if I bark at them first maybe they won't attack me'. Unfortunately the trainer's response is always the same - a very loud shout of "Oi, that's enough!" (not sure whether its aimed at owners, dogs, or both!) followed by "It's because they're both entire, just keep them apart." Whilst this may very well be true it doesn't really address the underlying issue and help us move forward (I don't want to have an ever-growing mental list of lots of dogs that we need to avoid). How would you approach this issue?
Well I am not experienced enough, but do sympathise also having Benson, entire and the same age as Harvey. My only suggestion would be to allow the boys plenty of space when passing. That though, needs support and awareness from your trainer, to implement some new guidelines that recognise the fact that some dogs,(entire or not) will need a bit more distance from each other, and to recommend the owners all respect this. Having a bit more structure in the class may help reduce the tension and stress the dogs are experiencing prior to any actual close encounters. I think it is very easy to say just keep them apart, but the onus, in my view is the trainer to recognise the signals the dogs are giving off, and to make sure he responds to this before they become too stressed. A training environment with other dogs should be an idea opportunity to work on desensitisation and good manners. I also think that any spats also increase tension in the rest of the dogs in the class.
I agree with @Beanwood that the proximity of the other dog when passing could be the main issue. Dogs, like us, like their personal space. If space is limited have the dogs on 'outer' leg so they can have maximum distance and even try tour curve away if you can. Dogs do not like to meet head-on. It really sounds as if you need a new trainer. Someone who just shouts out as you suggest really needs to study more around canine behaviour and body language let alone have you working so close together that a reaction is virtually guaranteed in a class situation
I know it's not always possible to have lots of space when you are entering or exiting a class or at a trial. For some reason we never have had a spat in either, even with intact males kenneled side by side at a trial, never met each other before either. Your trainer should be part of this. The trainer decides protocol in their class. We have kept an eye on a couple of dogs (once two intact breeding bitches) and then gradually worked them closer together. More and more conformation people want some evidence their dog is trainable and good with other dogs so are putting at least a CGN on them, here. However I do suggest LAT training from Leslie McDevitt's book, Control Unleashed, is a good thing to try.
Forgot to ask - how is Harv out walking with other dogs particularly if meeting on lead - leads do present numerous problems.
I think you do need to avoid - as soon as you saw that other dog looking not quite ok, you should have got Harv out of there before he reacted. Never having him react is the solution, so you have to avoid whenever you can. If he reacts, he is more likely to react again. I have (or rather had) an identical situation with Charlie - a little while ago now. He growled at a male dog - first time ever he had ever growled at another dog and it was after he had been attacked by a very big mastiff type dog. I called in an extraordinarily expensive behaviourist. I paid a lot of money to be told: * Never allow your dog to rehearse the behaviour - ever. Do whatever you have to do to avoid incidents. * Never allow your dog to have a bad experience with another dog. If you don't know the interaction will go well, avoid it. * Train a lightening fast U turn, and recall away from other dogs - on and off lead. Plus we went out and spent hours observing Charlie and other dogs and discussed signs for Charlie being uneasy, or the other dog being uneasy. I got a lesson in how to stop an approaching dog by pointing a walking stick at its chest and so on. I did (and still do) all of those things. I added to it Charlie meeting as many friendly dogs as I could manage. I'm lucky, and my dog walkers called in favours and I packed his social walks with casual bumping into girls, puppies and males that had been vetted in advance. Charlie is relaxed and happy around 99% of dogs, but just sometimes he will go a bit stiff, but will always recall away immediately. If I see another male dog go stiff, or I just don't like the look of his body language, or Charlie goes stiff - that's it, Charlie is recalled or we do a U turn, and we avoid.
Hi, I don't have a lot of experience or training myself to offer actual advice, but it seems to me that's not a very supportive or helpful attitude from the trainer in the class. I should think you need to be in a situation where the stress levels are less and help build up Harvey's confidence from there.
I've just come across this video wokshop from Ian Dunbar. I don't agree with him 100%, but the preview video is probably worth a watch. https://www.udemy.com/dunbar-growl-class/
I never find myself agreeing with Ian Dunbar more than 50%! He is a bit of a dinosaur (although wonderful of his time) I think.
@JulieT So do you think it was worth the money? I would be prepared to pay a small fortune if I could find someone who could 'cure' Lottie's dog-poo-eating addiction, which is a nightmare because of her sensitive stomach issues. I mean 'cure' as in stopping her from trying to find every single bit of poo on a walk, rather than leaving it when she's found it (which she's pretty good at if she's not too excited, like when there's another dog around).
I didn't think it was worth the money at the time, tbh. But looking back on things I do use what I learned in that session, and I think it has served me and my dog well. I still think it was expensive though. I don't think a behaviourist is very relevant for poo eating. There is nothing 'wrong' with the behaviour of poo eating, although appreciate that you may hate it (I would too). I think you probably just need a straightforward trainer. You need to train your dog to stay engaged with you on a walk so she doesn't go off to find poo. Imagine being able to keep your dog's attention when the woods are scattered end to end with fresh steak - people with dogs that are very engaged with them could do this easily.
Charlie can be reactive to a few dogs and they to him so we do whatever is necessary to avoid any reaction, quick turn about in the opposite direction, walking in the road if it's safe, going up someone's drive/garden to gain enough space, if space is the issue a curve walk rather than a head on. It can be difficult but getting better also with LAT training which is really helping. Charlie was also attacked in October last year and this did affect him, David too as he was bitten I wouldn't appreciate an "oi" from the trainer either, not very helpful or professional. Hope Harv is OK x
Thanks, that makes sense. However, while I do some training and games on walks, I would also like to have some down time, when we can both just potter along, plus sometimes I'd like to walk with other people and dogs. But of course those are the times when she will find and eat poo. I guess if I have better engagement, these other situations will become more manageable. Is it acceptable to use this forum to ask if anyone has recommendations for trainers?
Well....it's sort of like any problem. My dog chases ducks/deer/skateboards/footballs/eats poo. If you have a dog that does something undesirable when left to their own devices then you can't leave them to their own devices. That's pretty much that. Although once you have a very high level of engagement you can call them back very easily if they start to wander, and ask them to walk at heel and so on. I suppose a dog might 'grow out' of poo eating if they don't do it for long enough - I don't know about that. My bitch will eat horse poo if she gets the chance, so I've trained horse poo to mean 'turn for a treat' but if I weren't watching her to throw the treat she'd just turn back to eat the horse poo. I don't hold out much hope of just 'pottering along' and her not eating horse poo.
When I walk my dogs, they are mostly left to do their own thing, though I will do a bit of retrieving, which is difficult as the moment I move my hand slightly toward the game bag on my shoulder, he is there, so I can never put down an unseen dummy for him to find. However, that wasn't the point! Rourke can be well ahead of me, but if he sees a dog, a person, a horse, a bird he immediately turns and rushes back to me for the tennis ball, not sure how I trained that! The tennis ball has always been his reward rather than food when training. So maybe you could train that and still be able to potter.
