Not being familiar with what force fetching is, I looked it up...wow. "Force fetch, in case you're unfamiliar with the term, is, in a very basic, nuts-and-bolts explanation, the repetitive application of a negative stimulus that conditions a dog to get an object in its mouth as quickly as possible upon cue. It's the backbone of many training methodologies, the finishing touches in others and still heresy in other circles. In short, you pinch the dog's ear or wrap a cord around two of the dog's toes and squeeze them together. When the dog opens his mouth to protest, whether that's to vocalize or bite, you shove a wooden training dowel into his mouth and simultaneously release the ear or toe pinches. Done repetitively, the dog quickly learns that the painful stimulus goes away as soon as he gets the object in his mouth. He quickly begins diving for it and by overlaying a command, such as "fetch", the behavior and consequence are associated with a cue word. You can then overlay the e-collar and use an electrical stimulation instead of a pinch to gain the same results." The Google imagery that goes along with what the process involves made me absolutely sick to my stomach. The dogs are chained and hobbled to a table so that they can't get away, while the trainer inflicts pain on the dog. Absolutely disgusting. How you could do this to any animal, let alone a companion you love and wish to bond with, is beyond me.
You can send a dog away to be trained, but as soon as you get him home, unless you maintain that training, all will be forgotten or nearly so. Far better to have fun to train your dog yourself, doesn't take very much time, you don't think the trainer spends hours a day, probably only 15 - 30 minutes a day. Interest in hunting should be in the dog anyway and no need for force fetching. What do you intend to do with. him when he has been trained? I suppose it is more difficult for you if all dogs go away to be trained, whereas here, we tend to train our own dogs ourselves by going to classes, though of course there are kennels which train dogs.
Successful training, in my opinion is all about the bond between trainer and dog. The pleasure of that process and the joy in the success. Goes with the despair and angst often, I know. Whether that is gundog training or not. I remember a thread which brought up the force fetch concept before, and looked into it to. Just......No. We may not all be entirely 100% positive all of the time, but most of us agree the best and most effective training methods are based around positive reinforcement. It's a no-brainer in my opinion. Just like I feel I wouldn't have kids then hand them over and work full time, I wouldn't hand over my dog either. I know there are cultural differences. As well as financial, personal, situation variances between us all. But even taking this into account, its still a No, never, and I am not going to look back at the force fetch stuff again as I found it so distressing last time. Listen to your heart @Lindy Rig x
The trainer I used was against FF. The people who owned the ponds we trained on were for it and kicked me and another gal out until we did it. ONe reason for sending away to do it, I was told, was that it must be done every day and most owners had other lives that intervened and only a person who made their living at dog training could commit the time to it. However after reading about the intervals in the Beagle training and how they learned just as fast, I wonder about that. Life did get in the way for me ( my Mum was aging and died, and the trainer against the FF had the same Mum issues, his Mum passed away first ) and I dropped the whole thing. My friend, the other gal, did eventually find a trainer she could work with and did go on to put multiple titles on her dog.
I am not pro-force fetch. I am on the fence and trying to learn about it. I do know the methods indicated above are very outdated and I would be against those methods.
It would be a terrible thing to do to what should be your best friend, Lindy. If it were done to a human it would be called torture; just because a dog can't tell the press about it or take anyone to court doesn't make it ok, in my opinion. I'm sure you wouldn't want that to happen to your dog, and so presumably you are certain your breeder doesn't use those methods. Still... I know some trainers who teach their dogs the 'hold' via a less barbaric method, and even though I am not a positive-only trainer myself I still wouldn't let them have my dog, as I cannot approve of the dominating, "I'm the leader, you will obey and we are going to continue this until your will bends to mine" approach.
As I said I really know nothing about gunndog training. But surely something that's essentially a sport is supposed to be fun, so it should be fun for everyone involved - including the dogs. And that sounds really distressing! I can't imagine doing anything that would upset Stanley so I could win something.
For me it's just a moral and ethical issue with things like ff. I wouldn't do it myself and I wouldn't pay someone else to do it. I like having my dogs around why would I deprive myself of their company and I wouldn't want them to feel rejected. Also if you haven't the time to train a dog yourself how are you going to have time to go hunting. It just feels wrong, it makes me feel uncomfortable is a dog a tool or a member of the family. I understand you want a dog who can hunt but what does the dog need especially a young pup. It just seems strange that someone is offering a service that you will probably be paying a lot for it when what you need most is a dog you have a good and trusting relationship with. Do you really need to do this or is it just convention that's says you must? Our dogs don't choose to move in and live with us they get drafted I think we owe them our total care and commitment . You seem a caring person who feels conflicted by this perhaps you need to listen to your gut and dare to do something different?
Lindy, you say you are on the fence about these methods yet you are telling us what vile "training" your puppy could be subjected to. Heaven knows what state she will come back to you in. Your puppy is part of your family. You wouldn't send one of your children to a nursery where they were being abused. Please don't do this to your puppy. If your gut is telling you not to send her away please listen to it
We take our dog to a gundog training group class every other week and are taught how to train our dog to work in a positive way. Alfie is predominantly a pet but we felt it would good for him to use his natural instincts in a constructive way rather than try and fight them. I love going and seeing me, my oh and Alfie all improving as we all learn to communicate. I m not sure what country your in but if you can find a good class to attend I think you will probably see better results than sending your pup away.
We were visiting a friend when Snowie was a young pup, about 9 months old. The friend's brother was there and he'd obviously read up on the ear pinching method. I'd no idea what it was. The %#|?* fool went up to Snowie, without asking me, and pinched Snowie's ear to demonstrate this method. Snowie let out a scream. If you're still undecided, go to your puppy and pinch her ear and see if you're able to stomach her scream. (Well, I don't really mean for you to do this; but I think my point is made.) Please don't subject your lovable pup to torture. I was so upset and furious by what he did to Snowie, I got up and left immediately.
The bond between trainer and dog is essential. Trust is a cornerstone of this bond and important for good learning and temperament. I have dyslexia and was hit with canes and rulers every day at school because I was slow to learn and they assumed it was deliberate on my part. I am intelligent and subsequently gained postgraduate degrees. This intelligence worked against me as I was 'clearly' being naughty when I didn't learn quickly. I still remember the confusion and mistrust in my mind on those school days. Is this what you want for your dog? Pain and mistrust
I'm often asked 'how can you do it?' because I raise and train Guide Dog puppies from 7 weeks to 12 months old, then they move on. Mollie is my fifth. I can do it because I trust Guide Dogs. They use kind, positive methods and expect all puppy walkers and guide dog owners to do the same - and keep careful checks on the dogs' health and wellbeing. The bond with the puppy walker is essential - a dog who can then bond, in the same way, with their trainer and eventual owner. A dog who loves and trusts people completely. They move on so well because they bond so well. Of course I'm heartbroken when they go, but how they are treated moving forward matters enormously. But knowing pain is going to be used and still sending the dog away? Never. You will not get a better dog back. You will get a confused dog who is very good at a couple of hunting activities due to pain and force. Awful and pointless imo.
Mags makes such a good point. I'm sure on the forums that advocate FF, they'd be sneering at this conversation, calling us "permissive", "soft" or worse. That these methods make the best dogs. But, if you look at something that really matters, such as Guide Dogs, where the dogs aren't just fetching a bloomin' dead bird, but have their owner's lives in their hands, and what methods do they use? It certainly isn't fear, pain and intimidation. From this article: The Guide Dogs for the Blind Association did not embrace positive reinforcement training to be a part of the ‘in crowd’ or to be ‘cool’, they did so because it works. In fact, it works so well that the USA guide dogs organisation reported an increase in pass rate from 50% (the old rate) to 80% in their dogs after switching to modern methods in 2005. In addition to a significant decrease in handler training time. If R+ is good enough to train (yes, train, not bribe or threaten) Guide Dogs then it sure as hell is good enough to train a dog to pick up a dead bird and put it in your hand.
Same as Guide Dogs Victoria: "The average working relationship of a Guide Dog and a person with low vision is between eight and ten years. As a result, it is absolutely essential that you and your dog share a powerful bond, built on trust, companionship and a strong connection. There are several steps involved in preparing dogs for these relationships, using behavioural science and modern force-free training techniques. They include assessment, training and partnership."
