I have been dealing with Kestrel (13 weeks) having the runs for almost month now. She has tested negative for worms twice. But we dewormed her with Panacur and Metronidazole and she firmed up. As soon as I stop the metro within one day she is super runny again. Back on the metro less than a day and she is firm. My friend told me today that her dog got the runs from bully sticks as a pup but then eventually grew out of it. She was firm when I got her and had never had a bully stick. The first thing she got in the car for the 6 hour ride home was a bully stick and she has been chowing them down ever since. It is the only thing saving my fingers from literally being chewed off. I honestly have NO idea what is causing this gastric distress in my poor girl. She has been eating chicken and rice (with added vitamins) because the vet thought she might be allergic to her kibble. My plan was to switch her to raw a while ago but with zero gut bacteria because of the Metro I don't want to start on raw until she is healthy in there. Do any of you think that the bully sticks she chews ALL the time could be causing the runs? And would the metronidazole make a difference if it was the bully sticks? Can't figure this one out but my girl needs a good gut. She is desperately trying to fix it by obsessively eating dirt. I am trying not to let anything foreign in her mouth at this point to keep everything sort of 'sterile'. But of course she is a puppy and gets EVERYTHING in her mouth so I am not totally succeeding. Even though I am being a helicopter mom... Help! The vet is really not much help in this area as they have no idea what is causing it at this point... Thanks, Chanda & Kestrel
Well it could be a combination of the bully sticks..and something that has upset her tummy. If she has an inflamed gut, it will be more sensitive to new foodstuffs, and puppies generally have more sensitive tummies. I would cut out anything like bully sticks and use stuffed kongs with her normal food instead. The only treat Benson can't tolerate is beef tripe sticks, does and always has given him the runs. He is OK with venison tripe sticks though, just an example for you!
How many bully sticks is she having? They should only be an occasional treat; I wouldn't even feed one every day. And, yes, they absolutely could be causing her diarrhoea. This is an interesting read, too - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3524813/ Of 26 tested sticks, three had bacterial contamination; one with C. diff, one with E. coli and the other with MRSA. Not great if your pup is has no gut flora.
Yes, I think it could be part of the problem, if not the entire problem. Bully sticks gave Quinn horrible diarrhea for days when she was a puppy, and I didn't try them with her til she was around 4-5 months. Apparently they are very high in calories, which can cause tummy upsets so I would think it would be a lot for a very young puppy to have frequently. Like @Beanwood says, I would cut bully sticks out completely and only use her own food in kongs.
I didn't read the attachment, but I'm guessing a similar result for kibble. And any other foodstuffs lying on shop shelves.
Just skimmed the article now - very interesting! Particularly that 38% of breeders feed homemade raw or cooked and are less likely to ask for vet advice on nutrition (17%). That 71% people who feed bully sticks said they avoid byproducts - which is what a bully stick is. And that 38% of vets didn't know the source of bully sticks.
When Harley was a pup she had awful tummy trouble and spent long periods on chicken and rice. We had to cut out all treats and after many months eliminated (along with blood tests with the vet) that she is wheat intolerant and had a very sensitive tummy certain foods. I would cut out the bully sticks and see if it makes a difference.
OK, that is so weird. I have used high quality USA bully sticks with all my dogs. I have zillions of them just lying around so they are all free to chew on them at all times, whenever they want. My last lab from the same breeder had zero tummy issues and chewed her way through many a bully stick. My current service dog chows them like crazy. Didn't even occur to me that they would be any kind of problem until my friend mentioned that her poodle could only chew them for 10 minutes a day as a puppy or he would get the runs, he grew out of it though. I DESPERATLY need something for this pup to chew on at all times as she is a huge land shark with temper tantrums! I cut out the bully sticks as of yesterday, just leaving them for my current SD and bough a chicken flavored Nylabone... She isn't the biggest fan but it is the only thing I could think of for her to chew on safely. She chews a bit but doesn't even make dents in it. So at least she isn't 'eating' plastic which is why I normally stay away from that stuff. Not really a plastic fan... She has been on chicken and rice for almost a month now and I use frozen Kongs with pureed chicken a LOT. She is still INTENSELY trying to eat dirt and these little tiny pebbles. It is REALLY hard to even take her outside without her getting to this stuff. She is even licking the dirt out of the crack in our patio! Even with me helicoptering over her she is pooping out these little pebbles. BAD! I will give her maybe 3 days off bully sticks and then see if I can back off the Metronidazole. Maybe cut back to one a day instead of twice a day. I ordered some probiotics that are supposed to be in some kind of little 'capsule' (not a normal capsule) that makes it so that it can pass through the stomach and not get eaten by the stomach acid and then be released into the gut. Maybe another few days of the probiotics and see if the dirt eating lessens and the poop stays firm...? Wish us luck! So happy to have found you guys. You have already been such a big help to me!! Thanks, Chanda & Kestrel
Hmm, chicken and rice is not good long-term. A month - no way. I don't know how true it is, but I've heard of rice fermenting in dogs' stomachs and causing problems - you'd have to look that up to see if there's any truth in it. But, either way, chicken and rice is not a balanced diet for a dog for the long term. You can get special kibbles that are designed for dogs with digestive problems. I think @Atemas has her puppy, Red, on one? Prescription Diet I/D if memory serves. I don't know if you can get that where you are, but it's worth discussing with your vet. It's also possible that she has an intolerance to chicken - more dogs than you'd think do. Dogs tend to have sensitivities to proteins more than grains etc, so it could be worth replacing the chicken with white fish for a trial, to see if that clears anything up. The rest of the time, it sounds like maybe some constructive games and training sessions might be in order, to keep her mind (and mouth) occupied, and to wear her out so she sleeps more and chews your things less. If she's focussing on you, she can't be getting into mischief. And then, for the times you have to have a break (because, let's face it, we all need to get away from the croc sometimes!), you can use your stuffed kongs. Frozen carrots, ice cubes and a soaked and frozen rope toy also helped my girl when she was teething. And I bought an anco root, which is hard but softens as they chew it, so it's teeth friendly. She loved this when she was teething. Good luck!
She seems to not get along with kibble very well. And the prescription diets here are horrible horrible horrible bottom rung foods that I wouldn't give any dog. She had the same runny poop issue on kibble and also on the chicken and rice but neither had overlapping ingredients. And an antibiotic wouldn't really change an allergy so there is definitely something else going on... My plan is to go raw with my girl. My current service dog refused to eat kibble so I went back to raw when I got him 2 1/2 years ago and he is doing great as were all of my other raw fed dogs. BUT, I am not going to switch to raw with a pup that has no gut bacteria. She gets these really good vitamins with her chicken and rice but your right, it is not any kind of balanced diet and I hate having to do it. She gets between 3 and 5 short training sessions a day since she is training to be a service dog. She plays with my current SD in the yard multiple times a day. My goal is to not OVER exercise her. Too much exercise leads to an overstimulated pup which makes the biting worse. She is just a REALLY bitey pup. She is stubborn and likes to throw tantrums. She is great while we are training. But as soon as we are done it is right back to tantrums and biting. I have been keeping the crate on the bed so we hang out on the bed when she is calm and when she starts a tantrum I pop her in the crate and as soon as she falls asleep I open the door and she can come out again. With one week of this she has gotten much much better. I can even say owe and she was actually stop biting now. Shocker. I don't do vegetables with my dogs. There is always that heated debate about whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. I understand the truth of that matter. But a frozen wash cloth tied in a knot sounds good. I have not heard of an anco root before???
Bully sticks could definitely cause a problem. My first dog was allergic to chicken, so that could be a problem too. The issue you have right now is that there are many things that could be causing the problem. I would be leery of giving a puppy anything that isn't kibble or whatever she has for food. They have "baby" tummies...just as I wouldn't give a small baby a huge, rich meal. All the switching around from one thing to another isn't good, either. If you could find a good quality puppy kibble that is good for sensitive tums I would try that. And stick with it for awhile. Try not to think of your pup as being "stubborn" or throwing "temper tantrums". She is a puppy, doing puppy things, with no motive behind it other than to have puppy fun. She can get overstimulated, and just like a toddler, need time out to allow herself to calm down. Many times when a wild bitey puppy is put in a crate they promptly fall asleep. Good luck with all this, and keep us posted.
Is your pup still having runny poo with chicken and rice? Also, my puppy was having runny poo when he was being fed the bag recommendation of his kibble. Cutting back on the kibble, his poo firmed up.
Her problem started on the kibble the breeder had her on. It didn't have chicken or rice in it. The only thing I added after getting her from the breeder was something to chew on. A bully stick. Within a week she was having mushy poop. After two negative fecals we figured maybe we should deworm her anyway so we did with Panacur and then Metronidazole. She firmed up. One day after stopping the metro she got mushy again so back on the metro. one day on metro and she was firm again. The vet thought she might be allergic to the kibble so she asked me to switch her to chicken and rice. Still on the metro. Still firm. One day off the metro and she went super mushy again. Back on the metro. Back to firm. So as of yesterday she hasn't had a bully stick. I figured I would give her a couple days to get any bully stick 'stuff' out of her system and then back off the metro to once a day and add the probiotic and see what happens. If she stays firm then I will know it was the bully sticks. I have had plenty of puppies before. I have been training dogs for 30+ years. I have NEVER had one like this. Even my current service dog who is an Italian Greyhound was the most wild puppy I have ever dealt with. But none of the puppies I have had have been this stubborn. If she decides she is going to lick dirt in one spot there is NOTHING in the world other than completely removing her from the situation to get her to stop. You can try and play with toys. No. You can try and get her to play with her brother. No. You can move her to an entirely different part of the yard. No. You can try playing with a lure toy. No. She will nonstop go back to that exact same spot to eat the dirt no matter what on earth you do. I have always been able to redirect a dog to get them to stop doing something I don't like and to do something else. This one. No. And the tantrums are VERY unusual. I can't figure out what triggers this weird behavior. Under exercised? Over exercised? Over stimulated? Under stimulated? I have tried to find a pattern and I can't. But the tantrums are violent and gnarly. She refuses toys or play or chewing things or anything. She will shark attack my face (have some good scars going already) and bite my hands/arms/clothes... BAD. I have about 5 bandaids on right now and bloody wounds all over both arms. People look pretty shocked when they see me. Even all the trainers and behaviorists I work with are surprised by her tantrum behavior. But luckily the crate on the bed is helping with that. Today was the first day she hasn't made me bleed. I can now say 'Owe' and most of the day she will stop and chill out or play with toys or her nylabones. She has spent less time in her crate today than any other day. She is actually getting snuggly now and I can trust her to be near my body without worrying about getting my face bitten off. Yay! But I know puppy behavior and while this is more normal for labs compared to some of the other breeds I have worked with it is still way over the top. I work with a REALLY good behaviorist who is trying to help me and she was quite surprised to see her behavior. But I think it is something I can work with. She is getting better! Now just need the gut to work properly!
Makes me wonder how your breeder kept the mom and the puppies. I mean my breeder kept the mom and dad inside their home with all the puppies and exposed them to kids and all sorts of household stuff. She does run a kennel where all her dogs are. Sparky can be obstinate and fixated on certain things like you say. Now he's almost 11 months albeit more redirectable, but he can get quite devious.
You say you use kongs with puréed chicken in a lot. Is this part of her daily allowance of food? I have had a lot of problems with my puppy Red (just 20 weeks) and diarrhoea. Whilst I still don't know what has caused these incidents, she is currently on Hills Prescription Diet i/d food which really suits her well. I give her kongs (max of 2 per day) but use the wet and dry food from her daily food allowance. All treats are just the kibble (hard as not a great motivator). She gets nothing else and I am very strict about that. Don't know if this information helps you but I know how stressful, it is when their little stomachs are upset. My puppy also eats dirt, soil, grass, twigs, anything in our garden and out on walks. It is immensely frustrating. I am training 'leave it' and sometimes she does so hopefully we will get there or she will just grow out of it. It does put me off taking her out in the garden off lead I have to admit. Red is only now just beginning to get interested in her toys. I think Kestrel is younger than Red so what I suppose I am saying, is that as time goes on, she will become interested too. When Red was about 10/11 weeks, my DH and I both had some nasty injuries from Red. I had a really deep bite on my hand and he had a long deep scratch down his chin and the side of his nose. The box with bandaids/plasters was coming out daily .
She is getting a Kong at night and then if I need one during the day I will use one although most days not. Maybe twice a week I will use an extra one if we are out and I need to keep her busy. They are actually tiny puppy Kongs so it is NOT a lot of food in there! She is 13 weeks by the way... The puppies were raised in an amazing basement that is totally designed for raising pups. It is half filled with shavings for pottying and then half filled with all kinds of interesting things to climb on and play with and so on... She came from a little of 11 so she is used to having many many other puppies to play with all day. Out of all 11 pups she was the most calm. As far as her service dog training she is doing AMAZING. Not afraid of a single thing. Brave as can be. Learns quickly. Very well behaved other than wanting to bite everything including my wheelchair! Metal and all... She hasn't had a bully stick in 3 days now. I cut her metro down to once a day. I added probiotic that can get past the stomach acid and into the intestines where it belongs and she is still solid!!!!!! She is now chewing on a couple different nylabones and an old antler hand-me-down. She is totally respecting me saying 'Owe' quietly when she starts to try and bite me since I have been doing the crate on the bed and popping her in when she started tantrum. No tantrums yesterday and today she is being a dream! She hasn't been in her crate at all. Just snuggling with me and playing outside. I am now pretty sure that it was the bully sticks causing all of this intestinal distress. Could have also made her feel cranky having her tummy not feeling well. That could have been the cause of some of the tantrum behavior. She is still REALLY trying to eat dirt and rocks so I am hoping that I can cut out the metro and keep up with the probiotics and get her gut working properly and get her on a raw diet so she can get better nutrients. She is still gaining weight right now but it would make me feel a LOT better getting her off the rice. Just not a species appropriate food. I am more happy with her right now than I have been in weeks!
Sounds a good environment for the pups...but that was just the place they went to sleep and so on, right? The pups had loads of access to outside, grass, soil (dirt), natural undulating surfaces, water...and places they could run and so on? Because if not, then your pup is just exploring soil and stones and so on all brand new for the first time. Which isn't all that normal....just checking. Both of my pups put soil and stones in their mouths a fair bit, but nothing to worrying about. I just ignored them, or if the item was largish encouraged them to give it to me. They just grew out of the soil and stones thing. It was funny, when my second pup was about 4 months old I took her to a Gundog week with mainly HPRs. She came to socialise with the humans during coffee break. She did what I consider totally normal behaviour for a Labrador - which was to pick up every stone and bit of rubbish in the coffee area. I ignored this. The other students - that owned HPRs - all said "What! What! That puppy has a stone in its mouth!". I just said "yeah, of course she does, she's a Labrador - ignore her, otherwise you'll just make it worse". The best thing you can do with a Labrador puppy that picks up stuff (that's 95% of them....) is ignore, or drop treats around your feet when they approach you carrying stuff. But definitely don't fuss about it.
OK, that is good to know. She was fine with rocks and dirt until the metronidazole really killed her gut bacteria. That is when she started with the rocks, pebbles and dirt. We have these tiny little stones around our artificial turf and she has been pooping half little stones and half poop all mixed in. That didn't sound/look good to me. When we are out for walks she will find a rock much much larger on the ground and try and eat it. I have been pulling them out of her mouth because I wasn't thinking it was good for her to swallow a rock so large. If me pulling it all out of her mouth is going to make her worse I will stop. But how large is too large for her to eat a rock at 13 weeks. She is just over 20 pounds now...?
Yes,yes,yes.....bully sticks CERTAINLY can be causing the runs. My Cooper is 3 years old and he gets a bully stick a couple of times a WEEK. When he was a puppy IF he got a bully stick he always had the runs.....the same with rawhide. So yes, definitely, bully sticks are for once in a while.
First day without metro and only probiotics and still solid. Not bully sticks for 4 days now. Just nylabones and an antler. None of which she is that interested in. So far so good!
