I know there are plenty that disagree with me, my personal feeling is that we stand a better chance of convincing others of the merit of our argument if we avoid judging and 'demonising' those that use these techniques. Sticking to the facts of the matter if we can, rather than how it makes us feel. I know it isn't easy...
I think the key is motivation. Motivation for us humans is complex, very complex - and involves delayed gratification - sometimes delayed for years! With dogs the gratification can be delayed, but not for long!
There's a really interesting film about an elephant who was shot in america for killing her trainer who had repeatedly abused her in a harsh training regime. they interviewed a woman who had been part of this elephant training company. And she explained the cruelties which she had seen and taken part in. She was told this is what you do. She hated it and left eventually. But she could never forgive herself, or what she had done. it had damaged her so badly . I just remember her saying there is a place in hell waiting for me for what ive done. It was her facial expression that was heartbreaking she was in utter despair. sorry I think the point I want to make us when we damage others we damage ourselves . I know that its obvious and I'm preaching to the converted but at some point hopefully they will wake up. Thank you pippa for being so clear.
Yes, I'm long enough in the tooth to know you're right. I've been around farm livestock, horses and dogs all my life and don't consider myself unduly sentimental but that did shock me. In conversation with my trainer he said that these days it's prestigious to have a good gundog for people with money etc..., therefore trainers can be under pressure to produce a suitable dog by whatever means. Just like the horse world can be.
I think I've seen that, she went on a rampage in Hawaii in a stupid party hat they made her wear? Yes, sickening.
Yep it was it had a very deep effect on me along with blackfish. Blackfish I had to eatch in 15 minute pieces as it was just too much. I just find it so hard to watch anything like this now. I will not be looking for anything about ecollars or ff
There can never be sufficient 'ends' that causes someone to lose sight of the 'means' that results in causing pain, fear and suffering whether you are training a gundog or a family pet a horse or an elephant. Inflicting pain, fear and suffering as a means to make another creature do what you want is abuse.
I agree totally but what I find frustrating is the fact that its still going on when there is so much proof it doesn't work and the illogical arguments used to justify it. All I can do is keep pushing kind training methods which is an extension of the way I live my life anyway even if I'm seen as a touchy feely crank around here.I love the way my dogs always look relaxed and happy I don't care what anyone else says as long as they are happy. I love the way they move and work for me with confidence .I like this " dog centred " approach and i know since using this site and meeting like minded others I've got better at understanding and training my dogs. I'm not perfect not really that good at training but I try and I have clear lines that I will not cross. I also now have the confidence to say no I won't do that.
And the in answer to the original question truthfully no I wouldn't send my dog away knowing what abuse they would face in order to pick up birds for me.
The gundog community often sneer at 'designer' and 'accessory' dogs which are simply used as part of the fashion scene. I ascribe neither to painful gundog training nor accessory dressed up dogs - but my question to the people who are happy with train-by-pain - 'which is more harmful to the dog?' I know my answer. ..
I'm kind of wondering now if @Lindy Rig thinks we are all nutty and totally out of touch with reality? It's so difficult to step out of a culture you take for granted and is accepted as the normal. It takes a lot of bravery. There is a difference between the Gundog community and the show community and those who have pet or companion dogs in any event. There is a difference between those in the UK and USA and India for instance. It's easy to do just what everyone else does. I couldn't possibly see my every walk being a training walk where I am constantly having to keep my dog busy which owners of high prey drive dogs, who hunt, may need to do. We are all different. There is no doubt that the whole concept of sending your dog away to be trained by someone else is an alien concept to most on the forum here. Let alone the idea of using punishment in that training. I feel sorry Lindy that you feel you have to defend your cultural norms. You didn't create them. But you can make informed choices about which path you want to take. The key is being informed. You don't have to do things "the normal way" if you don't like how that happens. Just don't shut your eyes and ears, make an informed choice. Call us crazy dog people if you like, but we firmly believe in positive training being the way to forge good behaviour and good partnerships. End of. I hope this thread has given you food for thought at the very least. We aren't trying to verbally beat you up personally but more the culture that makes Force Fetch acceptable and normal.
I need to copy this to my phone! I was trying to explain this to someone the other day and didn't do very well!
@Lindy Rig reading through this has been a true experience. I know less than nothing about any of the gundog training or much less else but what I am very well schooled in the dark, sinister history of psychology with the torture of dogs mostly and cats to arrive at some incredible changes in the way we view and treat using psychology. Just one example is Martin Seligman's work with electrocuting dogs and the eventual understanding of a learned helplessness, which is one of the saddest emotional states and cognitive beliefs to work with, and I work with it often in South Africa. So from me, and with the full understanding of the challenges and responsibilities you face with you family but also with it being very clear that you love your pup very much, I am going to beseech and beg you: Be an ambassador for us. Join the ranks of those that are doing it in a scientific and modern way that benefits both handler and dog most. Please be part of the change we need to see. This is a chance to add one more person to the ranks of future of dog handling and training. Please do the hard thing, set yourself apart from the majority and add your person and dog to the ranks of revolution for positive training. I can't do this because I don't want to train my dog to a significant level and she is a bit of a back street labrador with no pedigree who mostly chases her tail and less anything else but I believe in how training is described by people like Pippa. You can represent people like me. Please do it for us.
Me too Cath , not enough kindness in this world . As the owner of a dog who is suffering from a horrible illness , I find it terribly distressing that there are those who chose to inflict pain . I don't wish to read any more either x
I found the comment about 'learned helplessness' interesting @Harley Quinn. Dogs are already helpless in many ways, they have no control over resources, food, time or activities. To train them with fear and pain will add confusion and sadness to this already 'captive' state. I know that our relationship with dogs over millennia is evolutionary and symbiotic. But, as we hold all the cards, I think it is our moral duty to be as kind as humanly possible in the process. The way we treat animals speaks volumes about us imo. ..
It was significant to me that it was through especially dogs that the 'learned helplessness' was so well illustrated and understood. I am sure other species would too but I have some interesting discussions with colleagues of mine that are researching animal assisted therapy and such and they believe that it is because humans have such a bond with dogs, and to a large degree, are able to communicate and form relationships with them, that the learned helplessness displayed by the dogs was so distinct. They were able to define why it happened because the variables were less because we really do have fairly stable relationships with dogs. Just some thoughts, no proof. But this makes me feel an additional responsibility for my relationship with Harley. I brought her to this place in space and time, she didn't teleport here through her own choice and therefore when I make decisions I have to realize what onus is placed on me, and am I okay with the choices I make. Harley doesn't get to go to a psychologist and work out her mommy issues, what I do with her and to her forms part of a script that she has no say in.
