I decided to contact some behaviourists today to see if I can get help with this unpleasant behaviour from Miss Cassie, but it looks like they all have waiting lists so in the meantime I decided to keep a note of how/when it happens and see if there is a pattern, and what better place than here on the Forum where I can get advice along the way. I really worry that she outgrew the crocopup stage rather than me teaching her it's not ok. So starting from yesterday. We went to meet the lovely person who has come into our lives via BorrowMyDoggy, she has been out several times and met Cassie at home, and is keen to carry on. She lives opposite the recreation ground in our local town and we went for a walk round there, on harness. Cass was quite happy, not phased by new place, it seemed. Karen took her halfway round, all well until nearly the end, when for some reason I can't recall I was walking so that Karen was inbetween me and her. I could see her start looking at me with"that look", and went back round and took the lead, and she started grabbing my hand, jumping up and nipping my upper arm. It's really hard to bring her back, she gets quite frenzied. Really great with a potential borrower and in a public place. She stopped when Karen spoke firmly to her. Mortifying. Today, we had great walk in the woods, probably an hour and a bit of walking and training along the way. Heel on and off lead, sit wait, and voice only recall. Rewards for voluntary returns, on game of tug. All went really well. Very happy. I stopped to talk to some people who she loves on way back, she sat and waited patiently, on harness by now. This was for about 5 minutes, including a little (grumpy) dog walking by, she sat and watched, no lunging. So off we go and it starts, jumping up pinching my arm, grabbing lead. My version of firm voice had minimal effect, in the end I stood on her lead so she couldn't do it, asked her to lie down and then chill, and when she did rewarded her. We proceeded home in this fashion, repeating I think three times. As I've said elsewhere, all this began at the same time as phantom pregnancy, but all other issues around that have gone now. It's very frustrating because other things are going well.
I would drop the firm voice - it will have limited efficacy as she learns it's not backed up by anything more aversive - and just stand on her lead the second it starts. She will learn that she can't do it, you become boring and the only way to get going again is by behaving. Repeat as often as is necessary. It doesn't matter if it's three times, six, or twenty. Consistency is key. It's exactly the same as puppy biting
I don't have any advice or suggestions I'm afraid, just lots of good wishes for you to get this under control. Molly is much the same age as Cassie, currently in season and I'm hoping we don't get a phantom pregnancy and thereafter a situation like you're facing. Good luck with sorting it, I'm sure you will and there's certainly some knowledgeable folks here to help.
@selina27 standing on the lead is a good way to proceed. I would also cross my arms and tuck hands in and turn partially away (around 90degrees) from Cassie to disconnect from her. Try to act before she starts the jumping and biting as prevention is better than cure. Hang in there as she will improve
Thank you @FayRose, yes great advice to be had here I'm sure. I hope Molly doesn't have a ph p, it was horrible to see her so confused. But she hasn't got that excuse any more! She was no problem at all around her season time, funny how it goes.
So sorry @selina27 that you have this frustrating problem. No advice from me but hope with support you can sort - a problem shared and all that . Your Borrow My Doggy friend sounds lovely.
Thank you @Jojo83 , my idea of keeping the log is to try and see what triggers this behaviour and prevent it if I can. I'm a pretty patient person but she hurts me if I just stand still. I have every intention of seeing it though Like I say, other things are going well, today my son and his girlfriend have been here for 2 hours and not once did she misbehave, lying down without being asked throughout lunch being eaten. That's a big deal, I am on the Hereford/Powys border, thank you.
Yes, it is good to share. Yes Karen is lovely and I hope we can make it work. Her Dad was a vet locally and she used to help him, so she's lots of dog experience. I will get through it, she's making good progress otherwise.
I should say @Jojo83 , that I'm pretty sure the triggers are extreme feelings, anything from happiness to frustration.
Thanks! It doesn't quite fit, but I can't make it more square without distorting it. I'll have to get the camera out at the weekend and try to get a better one of the three together
Yes - I'm sure Lucky saves up his naughty behaviour for when someone is watching just to embarrass me! Lucky has started rolling around on his back on the ground when he doesn't want to go somewhere. Last week he did it at a tram stop, in the cycle lane on the pavement... there were loads of people at the tram stop watching, and three bikes had to stop to wait for him to stop rolling around. Lucky did the jumping, biting thing for quite a long time - it probably carried on until he was about 2 yrs old - and usually because he was frustrated about not being able to do something. Eventually, we reached a point where asking him to sit or heel as soon as he got the crazy look in his eye worked. I tried to predict situations where it might happen, so if you ask her to do something frustrating, like sitting while you talk to someone, I would make sure you interact with a lot her afterward. For example, rolling treats for her to chase, giving her strokes and lots of attention, or anything she really enjoys. So, using a more special reward for something frustrating. Lucky would often do it on the way home from a walk, once we were on the pavement again. So, on our walk home I interacted with him by practicing heeling, sitting on doorsteps and practicing look and he stopped doing it.
Thanks @lucky_dog , for your helpful post. She was rewarded for waiting patiently while I was talking. That particular place and those particular people are highly exciting for her, so she is always rewarded for walking nicely by or waiting while I chat. So no excuses there! But yes, prediction is useful. Last night I spoke to the trainer who took the classes I went too, and she agreed that standing on her lead is the way forward (so to speak) but best not to reward, just pick up and carry on once she is quiet. Repeat when necessary. I really want Cassie to understand that it's really not ok to behave like that. So today - quiet day just me and her. Good long walk in woods, one fit of sparkly eyed zoomies but no rhino charges so all good. I was all primed with deflection toy but not necessary. We met a jogger and a man feeding the pigs but nothing required of Cassie. Then pottered around house and garden. I decided to take her into the horse arena where she has in past gone berserk with excitement going over the jumps. So she did pop over them and enjoyed it, but it didn't push her over her excitement threshold which I wanted to see if it would. So we did a little bit of off lead heel (oh just listen to me) and came home. No muggings. It was quite close and muggy though, and she was a bit sick when we got back. But she's ok. So I think I just have to go on being prepared to stamp out this behaviour. Not a lot has been asked of her today.
Echo what everyone else has said, regarding ignoring Cassie, even turning away slightly and standing on her lead. I would also give her something to do (if not over excited..) hand touch, or a tuggy game for example before walking on again. I hope you don't mind me raising this, personally I would be a bit unhappy if someone spoke firmly to Bramble. I also a dog walker, and she is fantastic, obviously we are not the same person when it comes to some of the basic behaviours. So we have worked hard between us on consistency with cues and behaviours, absolutely no raised voice for example, no jumping up...hmmmm that was difficult as Bramble LOVES to get on her hind legs and wrap her front paws around her..sigh. I had to compromise on that one!
No absolutely don't mind. There was no raised voice, it was simply the tone, and someone else, that brought Cassie to her senses then. But I know it won't work for me. I don't know why the standing on lead didn't occur to me before. I have done hand touch, but it doesn't deter her enough, and also tuggy but when she is hyped up she can pull me and it is a struggle to get her to let go, whereas when we do it at home she's really gentle and soon lets me win . I don't really understand tuggy though. She's quite a bright spark, I don't mean particularly intelligent, but quick minded and vivacious, and since this wretched ph p especially needs sort of low key handling. I will continue with my log, and am grateful for the input. I can't imagine Bramble behaving like this - two very different girls!
Well, I have not been mugged today. Walk this morning, about 40 mins, past lake through woods and back up the road. Practised hand touch and heel work here and there. There was some noise coming across the fields, as if some one was loading metal and it was clanking, she was quite perturbed ran around and barked with hackles up but soon decided it was no threat. No zoomies. Passed a house where a very friendly couple live with an elderly whippet,which is never ever going to play with Cassi but she lives in hope. She did look at me a bit with a glint in her eye, but no one came out to talk to us so we kept on going. Then I had to go out for a few hours, she was home alone. Had her tea when I got back and waited quite patiently for her to go out. Short walk in woods, slow because of my bad knee. Some running about but no zoomies, no grabbing lead. So again nothing has happened today that she doesn't like, apart from being alone for a while. I've been asking for more eye contact from her and generally making more effort to get her to focus on me, and there have been no stressful situations.
Well I've just had the most frightful time with Cassie this morning. We went out to go round the lake, normally takes 20 minutes. A beautiful June morning, she's lively and happy, and we did the usual heelwork practice, rewards for voluntary returns. One bout of zoomies and although she passed close to me no physical contact, so all fine. Then I stopped to talk to a couple of people for 5 or so minutes during in which time she sat or lay down patiently and was rewarded for doing so. As we walked a way I looked down at her --- and there's the frenzied look in her eyes, and it starts. Jumping up, grabbing my arms and clothing, any part of my body actually. Standing on the lead must have looked hilarious because it was like trying to pin down a skipping rope in action. Except it wasn't hilarious because I couldn't stop her, not at all. I think it went on for 10 minutes, completely manic and well over threshold. She's really hurt me today. And then she just stopped and I have a normal dog. So I am feeling very, very disheartened I can't believe this is happening with a dog I've had since 8 weeks and who I've done my absolute best for --- she's had sausages and chicken cooked specially for her for goodness sake. Worst of all I feel like a really bad example of +R training, it's all gone wrong. If standing on the lead doesn't work what else can I try?
Just a question, is the lead attached to a collar or harness? If it's on a harness, it really should be on her collar for this to work. If you keep the head down, she simply cannot jump up.
