So this is kind of rant and kind of a poll. How many of you have/do use crates for training? Would you ever stick a new dog or puppy unattended in your house without one? Why/why not? How do you think your own culture (UK, US, Australian, etc.) affects your viewpoint on crate use? Now for the rant... I'm asking because I got reamed over the coals today. A friend of mine here in Germany has a dog rescue group. A dog who was rescued from Romania about three months ago has had two foster homes. His current home can no longer keep him. Auntie Emily to the rescue! Well, not quite - she knew I'd started fostering again in Spain and pretty much pounced on me. Not that I mind. I miss having a dog and my flat is good for one...so bring on the new guest star! So today I went to pick him up. It was short notice as I thought I was just meeting him today. I told my friend, "I need a crate, do you have one I can borrow?". She sidestepped the question last night by phone, but I told her again this morning, "I need a crate". She said, "For you or the dog? Because Tibor (the dog) doesn't need one." The foster mom who was handing him over and previously was very friendly to me (she knew Brogan and knew how he and I were together), suddenly drops to the ground, put her arms about Tibor and starts crying. "You are going to put an old blind dog in a box? I can't let you do that!" Tears flow. LOTS of tears. I tried to explain again. How it's for the dog's safety as well (oh yeah, did I mention Tibor is blind?) while he's learning my furniture and flat layout. That I rent my furnished flat and do not want damages because there are only 2 landlords in town of short-term lets that allow dogs (and in addition my landlord is a nice person). That I personally feel I can't leave for even 15 minutes to pop to the grocery store if the dog isn't safe in his crate. That I don't feel like I can really sleep soundly as otherwise I'm listening for the beaver sounds of wooden door frames being gnawed on in the night. That we're talking a slow and positive intro to the darn crate and if Tibor shows signs of distress I'll come up with an alternate plan (or better treats). And that, above all, we are talking about potentially 30 minutes in the crate twice a week during the day and the first few nights with the crate directly next to my bed. Yet clearly, I am the devil here. And you'd think my friend would understand. After all, she's Mickey's human. Yeah, Mickey who can't be left alone more than 20 minutes without eating the door frames, doors, sofa and assorted other items. Even after 7 years of living in Germany part of the year, the culture shock sometimes slaps me in the face. Today it did. Even my friends who know me and know I will treat Tibor well, clearly thought I was out of my stupid American mind. But they still needed me to take Tibor and I still said I would just buy my own crate. No problem. Then out came a crate (magic!) from my friend which she'd had all along. It's one of those fabric ones, but at least he'll chew on that before he gets to the sofa. I respect cultural differences, but right now I just feel burned. It's not just the crate thing, it's the firm adhesion to the idea that training dogs (obedience) is negative. Why is using 100% positive training "mean" or "un-natural"? They used to coo over how polite Brogan was but thought he was (apologies to Lady Gaga) "born that way". Why persist in the thinking that they just pop out fully cooked and, if not, then "oh well, nothing else to be done". OK, there was my long rant. See now why I put the important questions in the first sentence? I really am curious to hear what you think. I didn't think about this before, but my opinion is that there is a stark cultural divide on whether a crate is a training tool or a prison.
Gosh Emily not want you want to happen when you are doing the rescue centre a huge lovely favour especially with a blind dog. For me a crate is a training tool during puppyhood. Hattie disliked her crate, probably because I didn't know about crate training almost 10 years ago She was only in it whilst I worked part time (4 hours including travel) and during the night, we packed it away when she was 6 months old as she wasn't a chewer and was happier in her bed Charlie was a like a Tazmanian Devil on arrival and shredded everything in sight, beds, shoes just everything so I dusted off the crate which he would willingly go in during the day for a sleep (door left open) and at night, he liked his crate as it made him feel safe as he was used to be kenneled in the rescue centres but when the chewing had stopped due to training the crate was put away until the next puppy arrives Frankly I don't really like crates but they do serve a purpose. I also think it depends on the puppy, dog or rescue dog, some might just settle on a normal bed without any issues. They are only a prison when people use them to lock their dogs away for many, many hours whilst they go to work or ignore the dog, I know quite a few people who behave like this even one that rescued a very young puppy then I want to smash the crates to pieces. xx
I'll admit to being a crate convert. When we got Stanley OH insisted we had to get a crate (his brother had one with his dog) and I was horrified. Dogs DID NOT belong in cages in my mind. But OH was not moving and I wasn't going to be allowed Stanley without one. But it turned out to be a life saver. We didn't really use it for toilet training, but being able to pop the crocodile in there for 15 minutes respite and knowing he was safe was really helpful. Since about 10 months the crate door has been pretty much open when we go out or on a night. The only time I pop him in there now is if I'm sweeping the floor or getting something hot out the oven that I can tell he's got his eye on. Hopefully we'll get rid of it altogether soon as I'd like a dining table and it's in the only spot available. Stanley never really goes on it by choice, he prefers the comfort of the couch
Oh dear Sorry to hear this Emily I'm not sure why exactly but for me crate train ing was part of the whole puppy deal - pre forum. So I'm guessing this is more the cultural norm around where I live as I'm pretty sure I would have gone along with suggestions from others or books I had read. It definitely served it's purpose for training but this wasn't the main reason for it. As "working parents" it was essential for our house to remain intact. Our crate was on loan for a while but now back for puppy visitors. Lilly gets back in it at every opportunity including at her holiday home with her 5or6 yr old furry cousin. It's a safe place 100% How is your new charge?
I think it's very easy to view a crate as a prison - after all, you're putting the dog behind bars. In our human minds, that confinement is for a punishment, like a jail. But, if you can get past the aesthetics, and think of it as most dogs (correctly introduced) do, as a den, then it's a very different beast indeed. Just like children like to build cosy dens under their blankets, rather than being out in a big room. When Willow, my fearful dog, is truly scared, she finds her way to the smallest space she can find - in the corner, under one of the trellises in our temporary kitchen, or similar. It's because it's comforting to be in a small space where they feel nothing can get to them. All those stories about people adopting dogs and cats who won't come out from behind the sofa, or under the dresser, for days? Same thing. I consider it an absolute kindness to have this sort of place available to them, especially for a dog that is suddenly in an unfamiliar environment. To have that space they can see as "theirs" is hugely comforting to most dogs.
A crate was invaluable with Rory who was a chewer who suffers from colitis. I would have been negligent leaving a pup who would make himself very ill indeed if he ate something which irritated his tummy. I think leaving a blind dog who didn't know your property very dangerous. Surely they didn't think it was safe to leave him unatteneded in a new place. They have to have time to build up a mental map of any new place. I have had a blind cat and a partially sighted dog and know how traumatic it can be for them to feel lost and vulnerable in a new environment. I think you are very kind helping out and they were very unreasonable taking advantage of you and unkind. If people are helping you you don't treat them like that. Im sorry they behaved like ungrateful children.
Cassie is the first puppy I've had a crate for, I remember the first time I saw a friend put her dog in one I wondered what on earth possessed her. But it's been marvellous, I have a slightly unusual house with no utility or back kitchen so it's really helpful. I'd had her a week before I got it, so she already loved her bed which I put in there and she never had any worries about going in. I covered it over at night. She spent part of the day in it when I went to work, but has had the door open at night since about 9 months. She will put herself in there by nudging the door open, especially if she considers I'm too late going to bed and needs her night-night snack. For her, it doesn't seem to be a prison, I've been careful even when using it has time out for raucousness or biting to ensure it isn't a place of punishment and she's never got upset in it, usually settling very quickly. So based on my one experience I think they are a good thing.
I like crates - properly used goes without saying. Tatze loves her crate, the door is always closed as it's a puppy-free zone, so she often asks to go in there for some peace to suck her teddy's nose Our GD pups are expected to be de-crated by six months old, nine months at the latest. This is to be sure they are not chewers or destructive. All mine have been de-crated or unpenned by five months old. Stick to your guns - if you are going to care for a dog for your friend it must be on your terms. .
All my pups start off in a crate as a safe place for them to sleep. Around 6 month Fred didn't use it so I took it down. Annie loves her crate and still wants to sleep in it, so up it stayed. I think the so called friend needs to take a long hard look at what she said to you. You should just say, Its my home, my rules. If she doesn't like it, let her keep the dog. You are too nice Emily.
Another point - it's worth having dogs comfortable in crates whether they usually sleep in one or not. There will be times when it's necessary or even essential - in a car, at the vets, after operations, for air travel etc etc. Mollie has never had a crate but I have used Zaba's crate to make sure she's happy and comfortable in one for this very reason.
I was very anti crates when they were first in use, I guess this was due to the fact that I knew of some owners who abused the concept and kept their pups as virtual prisoners . However, my mind has been changed and I do now see them as being useful when used responsibly and not as a punishment ( I have actually lost a friend over this ) . I haven't ever used one myself , mainly because before we retired , we worked from home so our dogs were supervised as pups , almost all of the time and since our retirement ,we are home most of the time .
I said "I'd never consider using one" - this is not really true - it should be "I've never had to consider using one". I'm not keen personally. They take up far to much space - my wee hoosie couldn't accommodate one. None of our (second hand) adult dogs have been crate trained. But, in the unlikely event I had to use a crate, then I'd find a way. And I see how invaluable they are for post-op care.
I agree Sue , I voted the same as you but would have preferred to say that I haven't had to consider, big difference but none of the other options fitted x
I clicked a tool used in puppyhood but really, the door was always open because it was in our gated kitchen. I understand your wish to use one at least at first to protect an old, blind dog and your possessions. I do think crates are misused far too often but everyone here knows better than to leave a dog in one for hours and hours and hours on end. If I had to use one it would not conform to the advice I got at first, which is that it should only be big enough for the dog to stand up, lie down and turn around in. Instead it would be HUGE. Unfortunately there is not room for a huge one. And no, I really am not sure where mine is right now. In the garage I guess. Crates do have a place in a moving vehicle, for safety reasons. But only certain crates are safe in a vehicle. Mine is not, just wire, and it won't fit in anyway. The crates deemed safe by the Centre for Pet Safety look like they'd be very short on room and be hot and only useable for very short trips.
Both my dogs were crated. Riley loved it and when the crate was out for Obi he'd get back in. Obi hated it when he got a bit older and I didn't feel like working through it. My house is too small for crates to be permanent so I clicked on tool for a puppy.
I used the crate as a safe place to put my pup when I went out, or had a shower etc. Once the dog is trained and safe in the house, I removed it. They can be a prison if used as one and that is my fear/
I do agree with this (same goes for dog runs and kennels), but still couldn't imagine having raised my puppies and had so many fosters without using a crate. At the same time, I'm also really proud of them when the "graduate" the crate.
Hey, that's just a smart dog! Brogan was the only dog I've had who truly mourned his crate and preferred it to the couch. He was really so trustworthy from six months on, I just didn't bother dragging out the mammoth-sized Rottweiler cage. When he outgrew the puppy sized crate, I just planned to get it out of the house all together. I had taken the door off, but he still love to go into it. One day he got in (somehow!) but getting out his butt got stuck and he dragged the crate around the room like a snail and its shell. That was the day the crate went back into storage. I don't think he forgave me for a month!
yes, I'm kind of hoping Tibor (new foster dog) will have this feeling with the right introduction. I mean, the world has to be a pretty overwhelming place when you can't see and are constantly getting bombarded with surprises. I hope he'll like the small space because there's nothing to navigate or figure out. Heck, I kind of wish I had a crate to hide in most days. So far, he's going in to get the treats I put in for him, turning around, but not laying down. But that's ok, we've had a few sessions. I think I'll just have to hope for the best tonight, though, and not close it. I'm afraid if he feels trapped I will have blown my chance for the whole "positive" aspect. I have a feeling it will be a long night of me listening for strange noises! Shades of Tiger's sleepover where he kept licking my feet all night while I camped on the too-short sofa. Ah...memories.
Strangely enough, this was the only HUGE issue I've ever had with a crate. My rescue pittie flipped out after her TPLO and hurt herself trying to get out while I was gone. Gone for 30 minutes to the grocery store for the first time in four days of watching her in the crate where she was just fine. Horrible experience. It taught me a huge lesson about introducing a crate very slowly and positively to an older rescue dog.
