Hi all I'm a new member just posting for first time, and sorry if I go on a bit too much. I wonder if anyone can offer some advice regarding health tests on parents when looking for a new puppy. I have approached a breeder with a litter due end Aug, but noticed that although the stud dog she is using is fully health tested (on his web page anyway), the breeders girl is only tested for hips, when I asked about elbow scoring and eye test, at least, she said she doesn't elbow score her girls and her pregnant girl was eye tested unaffected last year but she didn't retest this year as she hadn't intended to mate her. It was a last minute decision. The dad is lovely but don't the stud dog owners insist their dogs only go to stud with health tested females or is it only crucial that the male is fully tested? Any advice would be so much appreciated it just seems so overwhelming at the moment and most breeders I have contacted don't invite you to meet the parents until the pups are around 4/5 weeks old which is when you are expected to pay your deposit to secure one which all seems a bit rushed.
Hello Jacqui and welcome to the forum. I'm so glad that you're interested in the health tests of the parents. You've obviously done some research when looking for your new puppy. You absolutely should expect both the parents to be fully tested. It's not good enough for just one of them to be done. Good breeders will insist that their dog (sire or dam) is only paired with appropriately tested dogs, but it's not something that everyone does. I would never take a puppy from a mating where I couldn't guarantee that both parents had zero scores for their elbows, and low scores for hips. They would also need a current eye test and further tests (or genetic hereditary guarantees) for PRA, CNM and preferably HPNK at minimum. You can check that the tests have been done on the free Mate Select tool by the Kennel Club (assuming you're in the UK http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/ The range of tests Mate Select offers is very interesting and can highlight potential problems. Look up their registered health tests, but also consider the EBV (Estimated Breeding Value - the higher into the green the better) and COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding - the lower the number, the better, in very simplistic terms). If you would like further guidance on individual dogs/pairings, drop me a PM and I'd be happy to help, so there's no "naming and shaming" going on in public.
I would be suspicious of a breeder that doesn't vet you too. We were invited to see Ash's litter when they were 3 wks old....not to pick one or pay a deposit...but so the breeder could meet us and decide if we were good enough to have one of his pups. We went back when they were 5-6wks old to choose one. Personally I would not consider a pup from untested parents. If you're in any doubt walk away, there are some really nice litters around. Have a look at http://www.champdogs.co.uk
I got my last pup from champdogs site. his breeder carefully picked her stud dogs and made sure they were thoroughly tested. Her bitches were tested comprehensively too. I want a dog which will be healthy and be with me for a long time health testing gives you a good start. I only buy from tested parents
Thank you for the advice it's so helpful and I will be sure to look at the Kennel Club's website and to check the EBV and COI. Any guidance would greatly appreciated. I have been monitoring a breeders site where their stud dog litters are detailed. The dogs are fully health tested, I contacted a person listed from there and asked about the health tests for her bitch, she had unaffected eye exam this year, and 2/6 hip score but when I queried elbow score she said she didn't see the need as the stud had a zero elbow score, is this right? Her girl is stunning and the parents both have 0 elbow scores?
Thank you for the reply, I have been looking at the Champsdog site it's really good, but have found not all is as it seems. I have noted that a few breeders on there seem to be just large commercial breeders, and after some research on the internet one of them had 80 sheds not sure if that's normal, but looked to me like commercial breeder but all relevant health checks in place, but I wouldn't want to have a puppy from there it's just a personal choice, also I'm a bit apprehensive of contacting breeders who breed quite a few different breeds - there are lots of good breeders about and I know I will be lucky enough to find my puppy soon. I haven't yet been in contact with a breeder who invites you to come and visit earlier but I am hopeful and it's so helpful and encouraging to hear your experiences.
Every Labrador to be bred from needs to have their elbows scored. There isn't a full understanding yet of the components that dictate whether a dog has dysplastic joints or not, so it's not a guarantee that she will have zero elbows just because her parents do. It appears that it is more likely that a dysplastic dog will create dysplastic puppies, but there's more to it than that, as some dogs with zero scores still create puppies with dysplasia. That's why Mate Select is so good, because it allows you to look through any registered progeny to see scores from any puppies produced. That data goes into the EBV test. Of course, if the data isn't available (simplistically, this is the first litter or no progeny have ever been tested) then you just have the scores of the two dogs that are being bred to go on. In any event, you should ensure that there are zero scores for elbows for both sire and dam of any potential litter. I would avoid any breeder who tells you otherwise, because they are either misinformed, or else actively trying to deceive you.
I'm very encouraged by your responses. No, it's not normal to have 80 sheds - that's a puppy farm. Breeding several different breeds is also a red flag, so well done with that, too. Of course, it's perfectly possible that a good breeder might breed from more than one type of dog, but they would tend to be related in some way - so someone breeding Labradors and Spaniels wouldn't be surprising if they worked their dogs. I'd be more suspicious about someone breeding Labs, Beagles and Chihuahuas
Do check, too, on testing for EIC (excercise induced collapse). Before eventually buying Wispa, we walked away from a litter where the breeder seemed reluctant to find the paperwork for the claimed test scores. We then got Wispa from a different breeder, whose paperwork was fine, but I didn't know about EIC then. Wispa showed signs as a puppy and so we have to be very careful not to get her over-excited. Her littermate brother has been tested and has found to be affected.
Thank you for all your tips and advice, re the EIC test, is it necessary for BOTH parents to be tested or just the sire? I take on board the comments about elbow testing for both parents, so I am back to the drawing board regarding my search for a healthy puppy. I do appreciate all this advice, I can see how easy it is to get drawn in and then make a big costly heartbreaking mistake with a pup. The lady I mentioned who I have been in contact with sounds so nice and her girl is stunning and so is the stud ... but she is not elbow tested so I am going to leave it there. Thanks again for the advice x
EIC is one where more is known about the genetics. It is recessive, and so needs two copies of the affected gene (one from each parent) in order for the dog to be affected. So, if either parent is "hereditary clear", meaning they have no copies of the gene, then the puppies cannot be affected. If the other parent is affected, the puppies will certainly all be carriers, which isn't a problem if you don't intend to breed. If that parent is simply a carrier, then 50% of the puppies will be clear, and 50% will be carriers. Being a carrier isn't an issue as far as any affects on the health of the dog, it just means care must be taken to avoid breeding with another carrier.
And, yes, trying to find a puppy the right way is a rollercoaster indeed! It's easy to fall in love with a dog but then realise it's not a fit. Don't worry, you'll get there, even if sometimes it feels like there will ever be a litter that suits!
I'm so sorry to hear about Wispa and brother, it's such a mine field and I appreciate your advice this is all being added to my growing pile of notes
Hi and welcome, one of the good ways to find a puppy is to find a breeder you like, or a stud dog that you like the look of. Contact the breeder, and be prepared to wait a while. Any good breeder will want to get to know you before selling you a puppy. With my current pup, I looked for a long time for the right fit, and found the (to me) perfect breeder. I then had to wait almost 10 months until I got my puppy, because she only has one or at the most two litters a year...
There is hope I know I have only been searching since February and in comparison to the life of the pup is no time at all I think also I might be restricting myself further in having a longing for a chocolate puppy.
In regards to Champdogs , I got Bella from a breeder who advertised on the site .I was VERY lucky to find the breeder as they live literally 15 minutes away from myself (Cleveleys , Lancs ) and had a very positive experience with them . First of all the breeder and I set up a meeting at her family home ,where when I arrived I met Bella's Mom AND Grandmother along with Bella and her siblings . The first meeting was more of a "get to know you" affair where we sat and chatted about my experience with dogs etc , I could see that it was a family home with all the comings and goings that go along with it and she answered all the questions I had about all the relevant tests and scores etc .The breeder at the time said that she wanted to knoiw if I was "good enough " to have one of her pups as she has turned people away in the past ...I guess it also helped my case that Bella's Mom as soon as she saw me decided to jump on the sofa next to me and promptly fall asleep with her head on my lap ! Picture the scene ......me looking for a pup and trying desperately not to fall in love with one in case things didnt go well with the breeder and then getting there to have Bella's Mom fall asleep on me and then have a lil girl pup fall asleep on my foot and another lil girl lay down next to my other foot and decide that she liked my shoelaces ! After the first meeting the breeder and I decided that we were a good match and I was invited around to choose a pup , again the 2 lil girls did exactly the same thing only this time one decided to chew my shoe ( the same one who last time chewed on the laces) .This time I took my OH with me and I had my heart set on getting the sleepy girl only for my OH to say that she wanted the chewer ! Guess who we took home ! ( and I remind my OH of this EVERYTIME Bella destroys something she shouldnt or misbehaves lol ) The breeder at the time of purchase gave us a checklist of "Rules" for Bella and even said that if we decided that we couldnt cope with her at ANY point during her life and decided to give her up ,the first person we had to call was her and she would take her back .It also helped that the breeder also owns a local pet shop where we could pop in for advice / supplies . All in all I was lucky I guess
Hehe, I went one (or two) further than this. I wanted a chocolate bitch. With good conformation, so from show lines. And who had the temperament to work. Obviously, with good health scores. Hehe. Not many of those about! But, I got my little Squidge out of it, and she is an absolute delight. We have entered a couple of conformation shows, where she hasn't disgraced herself at all, and she absolutely adores gundog training. She also has a stunning temperament; cheeky and full of life, confident as anything and a champion ear-licker.
