Trainer disapproves of using harness

Started a new class today and the trainer really seemed very negative about my choice of using a harness. I said that as Holly rarely pulls when on the lead it isn't really an issue, and on the occasion where she makes a sudden lunge for something it is less likely to damage her. Trainer replied that if she lunged in a collar and it was unpleasant then she wouldn't keep doing it!!
I liked everything else we did in the class, it was really calm, we'll run and informative and I am going to persevere, but is this a normal viewpoint for a trainer? These folks are seriously into obedience and also gun dog training, so is it a gun dog thing? I would no sooner drag Holly by the neck than I would one of my kids!!

 

@Holly Chocolate Loveheart I am honestly a complete novice but I do know that a trainer that approves of your dog hurting herself is not a trainer I would stick to. I would change. I read on your other thread that they also thought it was a good idea to tie Holly to a more solid object so that you could move away? As I said, total novice here but that is NOT how we were taught to stay at all and again I would be VERY worried with that suggestion.

 

^^^ This. Absolutely this. Go and find a trainer who uses force-free, positive-reinforcement methods.

 

Yes, walk away , quickly and think of this as a lucky escape !

 

I have walked away from three "trainers" due to their harsh handling techniques on Charlie. I wouldn't hestiate in walking away if I had been told that. It obviously has made you feel uncomfortable so go with your instinct and find a positive only trainer. xx

 

In reply to this:

There aren't many force-free gundog trainers around, but they do exist. The majority tend to use "traditional" methods, which range from slightly aversive (using stern tones with your dog) to downright cruel (force fetch and worse). If you choose to stick with the gundog training (and it's great fun!) then, depending on where you are, you may struggle to find a fully force-free trainer, but from what I can gather from talking to other people, there are plenty of instructors around who, whilst not force-free themselves, are good enough teachers to respect the decision of those clients who don't wish to use aversives and come up with methods that suit. In a class environment, this might mean you having to have the strength to speak out when you're not happy, and to do something different to everyone else, which some people would find uncomfortable. But, if there are no local force-free trainers ad you wish to continue with gundog work, then it's an option.

Where are you? Someone may be able to suggest a trainer.

 

I'm not actually looking to do gun dog work at all, I just wanted to work on basic obedience and these trainers were recommended. To be fair, I didn't see anything aversive used during the training, it was just a comment made which shocked me. I've done puppy classes with a trainer who is absolutely force free, and all about positive rewards, and I'm waiting to restart next class with her. She advocates harnesses (and so do I!). After making said comment she said "it's your dog, your choice".. and I said "yes. It is".

I've never done stay before. Also I've never tied Holly up anywhere in any way. So she was a bit baffled and I felt guilty. How is it taught usually?

 

I'm in West Sussex, and there seem to be hundreds of trainers out there but my choices are limited by my working hours; Holly is only with me two days a week, the other three she spends at work with my husband.
To be honest I've only done force free positive training with Holly and her heel work, recall and sitting was better than the others in the class, it's the being tied up which she objected to, and which I now feel bad about.

 

Just read this
https://www.thelabradorsite.com/teach-a-dog-to-stay/

 

Our trainer is not 100% force free and will use stern tones, training discs, and even yank on leads or push into position sometimes. BUT, he does respect my need to avoid these harsh methods, and it make me work harder so that we never need the trainer to use such methods on Coco. Other than that, I like his fun style and we're really only at class for experience with other dogs. There's not too many dog trainers on the Isle of Man, though there are a couple who ARE force free I think, oop North.

 

I really liked everything we did in the class except the trainer's obvious issue with the harness and the tying to a post thing, which in retrospect now seems very wrong. Shame because the dogs in the class were really good for Holly to mix with in a controlled way, in a really good environment. I can't really turn up to a class and then refuse to do what's being asked so I'll just have to give it a miss.

 

Eileen Ayling is in West Sussex, though I’m not sure whether this is near enough for you:
https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/findaclub/display.aspx?id=2983

I don’t know Eileen personally, only through the KCAI Facebook page, but she is definitely a reward based trainer who campaigns actively for ecollars to be banned ( and successfully prevented a company doing ecollar training days in both West and East Sussex).

 

It's definitely tricky, I joined a class when Cass was 13 months old, lot's of positives but a few niggly things that didn't feel quite right. I think what I struggle with is the "one size fit's all" approach, but I suppose it's different if you've been going to a class since a puppy was tiny.

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It is tricky. What I really want is to get Holly's recall sorted, around other dogs in a controlled way, and get her used to being around other dogs without losing her head and being ridiculous.

The class I went to today will progress to working off lead with other dogs around; but do I want to tie her to a fence and walk away to teach her to stay? Not really. Holly did lovely sits, and walking to heel .. but I've always used click and reward and that seemed frowned upon too. They use treats in a different way; the sit and stay exercise basically involved tying the dog to a post, getting the dog to sit, then doing a flat hand stay signal and turning and walking away then standing about 5 meters away. Dog obviously got up .. owner has to stand away from dog offering no cues whatsoever until the dog sits down. I didn't like that. The "reward" was owner returning to the dog, but this again telling dog to sit, stay then walking away. So Holly did actually do it, eventually she sat down, looking totally confused, and I returned to her, but I'm not sure she learned anything. Later this afternoon I got her to sit and then did the stay hand signal; (I didn't tie her up). She jumped up and bit my hand really hard, so I don't think it brings back fond memories for her either.

My puppy class was fun, and did teach us the basics, but the follow on class will all still have to be done on the lead, because of the field it is held in, where there are no secure boundaries and also some livestock, and Holly expends a lot of energy trying to get to the other dogs, I guess it's still an exercise in learning control and the trainer is really lovely. I like her methods and they have worked for us so far.

 

Tying up to a fence to teach stay? Sounds bonkers! Never heard of such a thing.

 

Please go and read about the research in learned helplessness in psychology and how Martin Seligman discovered the behaviour of learned helplessness. *Warning* I personally find it extremely difficult to read or watch. As a psychologist I know we have a very dark and disgusting history of experiments and I don't believe the end justifies the means.

Back on track, and again, I am a dog training novice but this type of training makes me always think of the dogs in the learned helplessness experiment. And I don't want to see any living thing feel like that.

 

I think so much depends on the trainer and how we relate to them. At 17 months, Cassie's recall is good, but I really need to perfect it around other dogs, this remains the big deal. From livestock, wildlife and mostly, people, it is good but other dogs are a big draw. The whole thing around playing with other dogs before and after training was a disaster, really.

 

I think you've answered your own question as to whether or not you should continue. It is difficult to be the only one not doing things how the trainer wants, but it can work. But it depends on how you feel about watching others in class using these methods.

 

I think it also needs you to be very clear on learning theory, what you will find acceptable or not - which helps if you know what is likely to be taught in advance so you have a plan. I think it's really difficult for the novice handler to see where things are leading and to make choices in the spur of the moment.

 

Tieing to a post isn't a way to teach a formal stay but it is a way to teach a dog to remain calmly tied to a post. My criticism would be that 5m is much, much too far as a first step. To start with handlers should be standing right next to the dog, rewarding calm behaviour. Then you take a step away and return when the dog is calm. And so on. It's exactly the same principle as you'd use in crate training (without a crate) or teaching a settle (while being tied) or teaching a dog to wait quietly in the open boot of your car (without the car). Basically, you are teaching the dog to remain calm while you walk away for longer distances and for longer periods. A good skill for a dog to have.