Oh, and I agree with Joy. Pushing on a dog's bum is teaching them to use their muscles to resist against you - the opposite of what you're after. And hauling her up into a sit from a down is teaching her nothing. I wouldn't do that. I do sometimes tap on Willow's bum when we're at agility and she's not sitting, with one finger like you'd tap on someone's shoulder "errrr...excuse me, how about you move this in a downwards direction?", but I'm the first to admit that that isn't training
Just a quick note, do you have a cue to use for her to sit from a lying down position? I only ask as Bramble used to LOVE diving froglike into a playbow and then lying down in training. It used to exasperate me! I trained a separate cue "situp" which sounds more like "sidduppp...." I only use this for a lie-down up into a sit. I think dogs see a sit from a stand and a sit from lying down as two different actions, and I guess they are really. I used this after a lightbulb moment from one of @Boogies post
And I'm going to present the other side of the coin Whilst I agree that they are two different movements and so technically two different behaviours which means that using different cues for stand-to-sit and down-to-sit makes perfect sense, I still use the same cue for both directions to make it easier on myself. Dogs are brilliant at reading contextual cues. For example, if my dogs are at a distance and I call them to heel, what they do depends on whether I'm moving (dog runs to my left side and walks with me) or standing still (dog runs to my left side and sits). I don't find it any different with the regular sit or up-sit. In fact, I would suggest that it's actually clearer to the dog what to do in the case of the sit, because they can't really get it wrong; if a dog is in a down, it's unlikely to go into a stand before the sit, especially if you are starting off with a lure, which is the same upwards motion whether the dog is laying or standing. Whereas, in my "heel" example, the dog could easily come to your side and remain standing. It's certainly absolutely fine to have two different cues, and plenty of people do. I just haven't found it to cause any confusion for my dogs when using just one; maybe because I always start with the visual cue, which is the same motion whatever the starting point. They do still have to be trained somewhat separately; you can't expect a dog that understands a sit-from-stand to automatically understand what your "sit" cue means when they're in a down, because they're using different muscle groups to move. But, again, if you're using the lure and hand signal in the earliest stages, it seems to translate pretty well. I put it in the same pile as "sit" means "sit and stay" vs "sit" and "stay" are used independently. Neither is right or wrong, it just boils down to individual preference and what works best for you and your dog. I'm just a bear of little brain who gets in a kerfuffle with too many words. At agility on Monday, I shouted "passa" instead of "through" and got poor Willow completely confused, poor love
Thank you so much @Joy @snowbunny @Beanwood for your replies. I really appreciate them and am pleased I posted my thoughts/concerns. I still feel bad at man handling Red so much last night - it goes totally against my approach with her. I found myself cuddling her when we got home which she will take any amount of . I have trained an ‘upsit’ which I hadn’t thought to use there - definitely worth a try. She willingly does ‘middle’ and ‘touch’ - not used either except trying to enter and leave the building in a more controlled way so they are worth a try too. I think @snowbunny, you have ‘hit the nail on the head’ when you say: I need to find a way with her where she wants to work or just accept this class isn’t for her. It’s in the evening and usually at home she’s asleep in her sitting room bed at that time so maybe it’s too much for her. We aren’t allowed to use hand signals either. Red responds well to those I have taught and I use them at Fun Scentwork class.
I can’t see any value in not using hand signals at this stage. I suppose eventually you may want your dog to be able to respond to either a vocal or hand cue, but not to allow them at all is strange. In all the good citizen tests you can use both and encourage your dog as much as you want, apart from in the stay, and even then you can give the odd reminder (eg hold your hand up briefly if you think your dog is going to move halfway through). You know how to train a dog -you have lovely Sky as evidence -so I think I would argue (politely) with the trainer! Or possibly find a different trainer.
If I "wasn't allowed", I'd be telling them I'm a grown-up and can make my own decisions on what I'm allowed to do or not, thankyouverymuch
Yes we trained Sky totally ourselves - she never got taken to a single class . Yes I think next week I shall be a bit rebellious - I might be told to leave . Actually, I do like the trainer very much - but my dog’s happiness and well being comes first.
I also admit to getting impatient and tapping Lucky's bum if he doesn't sit. I assume someone taught him to sit this way before, because he'll sit if you give him a gentle tap. This is the way these positions are taught by traditional trainers. I would definitely be rebellious and take food rewards and use hand signals! Eventually you can build up to no hand signals and no food rewards, but there's no need to rush it - especially with a young dog, in a new place, with lots of distractions. I only taught Lucky to sit from a down last month - and he's three and a half now! Before, if I asked him to sit from a down he would guess and either play dead or roll over. Now we're working on stand, which I never taught, so sit-stand and down-stand. I'm just using the same three cues (sit, down, up) and he seems to be understanding it fine. He actually really enjoys it - I think because I've made it more fun than when I trained sit and down the first time. I've been going quickly between the positions and am using a random reward schedule. So, sit down sit down sit - then a reward. Then maybe reward two behaviours in a row, then back to rewarding less often.
Yes I think I need to work on the random rewarding. Red made me laugh this morning - my granddaughter asked her to sit, no problem, then she asked for a down - no problem - but all the time she was staring at me - I could read her mind - ‘where’s my treats?’ She got them!
Well I was. I put my treat pouch on - haven’t the last few weeks. Gave her a few sneaky treats. I had been practicing Red’s ‘upsit’ during the week so when she lay down instead of sitting, I asked her to upsit - she did. On the loose lead walking which I see as a strength of Red’s, she had her nose to the floor like a bloodhound but the trainer said that was because there is a puppy class earlier so lots of treats having been dropped on the floor - smells just too tempting for Red. Trainer said she was very good - I didn’t but know in real life she is. We were given a news letter which I read when we got home. From January next year, the Bronze class will be later - it’s almost too late now and Red is always ready for bed when we get home - so I will stop in December. I will tell the trainer next week, it is too late for us. As they won’t be testing until next year, I guess we won’t do it but then I never really set out to do tests so not really bothered about that. Notice they do fun agility on Mondays - this is a new class. Dogs have to be 6 months at least so it must be minimal impact - might find out more or just continue with the Scentwork/targeted work we do on a Friday as there is an agility element tailored to Red’s age in that.
Good training session in the field today. Started with circling on a stool. Red does this easily - I only have to put the stool on the ground and she will put her front two legs on it and circle several times. I let her do 3, then click and treat. We then progressed to the big tyre. At first she couldn’t work out what to do so I was luring her. She quickly got the hang of it despite having to move in a different way. She then made me laugh as she jumped inside and started circling with her back legs in the middle of the tyre. The trainer said he was going to work up to that in the next few weeks . Next we practiced sitting on a mat and waiting to be released to go over two low jumps. She stayed nicely whilst I moved away and released her with a ‘Go’. She did them but I was pretty rubbish at luring her over the jumps. I think this is just practice. She watched the other two dogs who are a lot older, do the whole course and she was sitting wagging her tail and watching. Red was more focussed today and less interested in the rabbit poo. She sat better when waiting her turn. I didn’t use her harness today for the first time - used her slip lead instead. Felt she responded better. I have a long way to go to becoming a proficient handler but there is a little glimmer . KCGCS was also better this week.
We did 5 exercises at KCGCS last night and Red got 5 excellents on her card. The class had more dogs so more waiting our turn but that was ok - when it was her turn she did well. We had to wait a long time at the end to get our stamped card as the owners of two of their dogs were discussing their problems with their dogs with the trainer. Kind of put my problem of Red chewing her bed into perspective. The time is going to change in January but not as late as originally stated so I am hoping to carry on - depends really on the winter weather as it is a fair journey to make on dark winter nights. I am relaxing more as a handler in front of others which can only be good for Red and I think the discipline of being around so many dogs which she finds so exciting can only be good for her. One lady who is always waiting for the next class came over and commented on how nicely Red sits now waiting her turn and what a difference she can see in her - that was good to hear .
Well done @Atemas , Red is still young yet and it sounds as if you are making fantastic progress. I think that whole thing about relaxing as a handler is key, last week at my new class I felt so much happier, less afraid of failing and that was such a big plus. A great post to read.
I think learning patience and self-control is one of the best things about group training. Well done for sticking with it!
Great news! Your training is really coming along in leaps and bounds, you must feel so proud. Agree completely with Karen, self-control is one of the hardest behaviours for a young dog to learn
Well as good as last week’s KCGCS was last week, last night’s was not good at all. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry at the awfulness of it . On the positive side, Red was good at the sit/stay for a minute - she broke it with a few seconds to go when the dog next to her moved. Shame as she has been solid on this. She let me check her body - no problem getting her on her back to check her tummy - she just adores belly rubs . The walking around people and dogs could have been better - she had her nose to the ground sniffing where the other dogs had been. Playing with the toy was a farce as she would not give it up so we will be practicing that this week. The worst though was leaving her and calling her. I could just tell she was going to ignore me but worse still she walked off the other way and then came to me with a leaf (she had picked up off the floor) sticking out her mouth. Trainer got us to do it again and she was even worse. Hey ho. The class started very late last night - it really is a bit too late for her and we had to wait a long time whilst the class before went on. She was super excited as each dog came in and I was well tired by the time our class began. Can’t win ‘em all .
