What do you mean by consistent with your reinforcers? Do you mean, for certain behaviours always deliver the treat in exactly the same way? Currently, if I am out in the fields and want some high-energy engagement, I might ask her for a behaviour like a quick sit and then throw her treat to her or near her to snuffle out, but in a training class for example I would give in my hand. And sometimes, I would ask for a sit and then allow her to go to her food bowl as the reward. So all using my 'releasing' mark/click, which is fine for my purposes here, but quite a mixture of deliveries. So, the only reason I was wondering if they needed separate words was, I guess, to prepare the dog in some way for where the treat would be coming from (whether she might have to catch it, take it from my hand, or run across the floor to it). If that is unnecessary (and I was suspecting it is), then that's fine, i am happy to use my click ('yes') for all those situations. Ah sorry I am a bit confused. They hear the marker before you deliver the reinforcer, so if you use the same marker, how do they know whether at this moment you want your marker to mean release or hold position? Do you mean that for a stay or heel your marker always means hold position and for other behaviours it always means release? Or do you always want the dog to pause for a second after the click before deciding whether to release or hold depending on how it looks like you are about to deliver your treat? I am not really sure how I trained it but she releases on my click ('yes') and does not release/change position on my continuation marker ('thaaat's it'). I guess she turns her head to look at me when I give the second one, but as long as her body doesn't move I don't mind that, I am not doing any high-level or precision heeling or anything, I just want her next to me and not tripping me over! So I am generally ok with that aspect. I am thinking for a novice trainer like me, it is easier to train two different words for 'release' marker and 'hold position' marker than using the same word for both and training two different behaviours in different situations. But it is interesting that you would advise the second option. My question was more about whether a 'releasing' mark (when its ok to leave position) can be used for all different treat-delivery scenarios (thrown, hand-delivered, already on floor) - sorry I might have not been clear before! thanks for your help.
They don't the first time you do it for a new exercise. They do the second time. If you were only clicking for a one off event, with no repetitions, they wouldn't know. How many times do you do that though? Yep. That's it. My money would be on you delivered the treat in position on 'thaaaat's it'. If you had just used 'yes' and delivered the reinforcer in position it would have the same result.
Being consistent doesn't mean 'in exactly the same way'. The context is that you have to be consistent in terms of whether or not the dog moves before it receives the reinforcer. So be consistent about whether you deliver the reinforcer in position or not. It depends what you are trying to train - I'd hesitate for 'already on the floor' although no doubt it depends on the dog. I don't tend to release to a distraction because 'in real life' it is often inappropriate. So when the distraction is another dog, an old lady, someone's sandwich etc. then you don't want the dog to go help himself....
Reading this thread is making me marvel at how Coco manages to decode what I'm saying/doing. He is so much more than I am. I suppose it could mean we work well together.
So imagine what you would achieve together if it were clear to him. It really is very straightforward. If you want a dog to change position on your mark, deliver the treat remote from him so he has to move to get it. If you want the dog to hold a position on your mark, deliver the treat in position and don't give it to him if he moves. They cotton on real quick! That's enough of this for a while! See you in a few months!
Yes sorry that is what I meant - so for a stay and for a heel, you would consistently deliver in position so the dog expects that and knows not to move. For something else, perhaps a stop or hand touch, the treat is consistently delivered out of ‘position’ (because it’s so brief). I do the same, I just use a different word for the two - but good to know for a future dog that you can use the same one without problems. Hmm oh dear I release the Pig to distractions quite a lot. So I will heel her round her food bowl, up to it, away from it, then allow her to go to it as the reward. And I am currently working on asking her for a hand touch before letting her go to a promising sniff on a walk. I thought that was actually a good thing to do - Premack? Anyway, my original question about different ‘release to reward’ cues for different situations has definitely been answered - given that it is possible to even have the same word for release+treat and hold+treat, it suggests that certainly having different words for different types of release+treat situations is certainly overkill. Cues/marks have been happily streamlined and the Pig seems no more confused than she ever was thanks for everyone’s advice!
Hang on, hang on! You can't leave without a Charlie and Betsy update! And at least 2, no, wait, 4 photos and a video Hope you're all well x
I’ve done this too. I also use a toy on the floor as a reward when doing rally exercises at class. We have a few seconds tug, Molly releases it, we leave it just outside the ‘ring’, do the round and then I say ‘get it’ and she scampers over to it so we can play again. I find it is very motivating for Molly to know the reward is there waiting and I can’t see any problem with rewarding in this way.
My advice is, as a wise woman once said, "anticipate anticipation". If you always release to the distraction, the dog will anticipate it and may start to break. Same as recalling from a sit/stay. So, by all means release to the distraction sometimes, but ensure that you're not building anticipation that that will happen, by ensuring you release to something else, or deliver the treat in place, more frequently.
Good advice! I’ll make sure I am mixing it up. Because if it’s true that all the behaviours after the mark and before the treat are also reinforced, there is no point reinforcing ‘running towards your food bowl’ as I am pretty sure that’s quite strong already! But I still see the value in asking for a hand touch before letting her go to sniff something she wants to inspect, for example (I think it was you who has suggested this sort of thing before, to get the dog used to orienting back to you if she wants something in the environment)
That's a permission to take a reinforcer cue which results in the dog going to get the reinforcer....
