Hi there I have a nearly 10month old male lab. He has been very well socialised since in was very young. He has a few dog friends. I walk him twice a day off lead and meet lots of people and dogs He has never shown aggression and always been not that interested in most dogs. In the last month he has started playing VERY rough with my friends female lab who is 15months, he trying to bite her neck/side and she doesn't like it, she lies down to tell him no and has yelped a couple of times, I stopped the play and put him on the lead as he won't stop! It was only with her but today on a walk we met a 2 year old retriever male who was quite submissive and a lovely playful dog but mine went in full speed rough playing again!! Almost like hearding him and looks like he's biting too hard! The dog was still playing back but it's not a behaviour I want to continue!! He goes god training and in all other aspects he is a lovely lovely dog !! I really don't think it's aggression but what can I do?!? We are starting gun dog training next week so hoping they will have some tips!! Please help Steph x
Hi Steph. It sounds like normal Labrador play to me. They like to barge and grab at each other's necks and legs. After a good play, my three are often a bit soggy round their ruffs. Of course, he needs to know when it's appropriate or not, so you're perfectly right to stop the play if the other dog isn't enjoying it. But if they're both giving as good as they're getting and the body language is good, then there's no reason to worry.
Agree with Fiona's comments above, young dogs can play surprisingly roughly, in particular young male dogs who are feeling that first rush of hormones... But you are right to step in if the other dog is showing signs it is too much. My seven-month-old male puppy loves to play very roughly with my older dog - she'll play when she's in the mood, but when she's not she'll try to show him by turning her head away, not giving him eye contact, etc. if he ignores this, eventually she will snap at him, and then he backs off. My two know each other well and Merlin realizes (mostly) when Poppy is in the mood for his rough-housing, but if I can see it is making her uncomfortable I will sometimes step in and separate them.
Totally agree with everyone. Hattie is 10 years old and our rescue boy is 6 years old and they play roughly, mouthing round their necks, rolling around. Charlie doesn't know when to stop so Hattie tells him when she is done, she barks at him and turns away and if Charlie persists I say (not shout) "enough" and that's the end of it x
Thanks for all of your replies I hope it is normal!! We walked again with our friends dog yesterday and I kept him on lead at first until he was calm and walking well then let him off, I kept checking him throughout with 'ah' 'leave it' and he listened. The towards the end of the walk he started, she was lying down looking at him he stared back and went down then 100mph ran to her and biting and chasing the neck as she's trying to get away, he wouldn't listen to me or her body language so I had to run over and eventually grab him and stop it and put him on the lead after a bollocking She is very submissive and mine is dominant, but I think now she is wary of him she's showing she's scared and he's using this and bullying her I just feel so worried he's going to get into a habit if doing it with other dogs then it become a issue! I was thinking of putting him on lead when any dog approaches and make him sit and be calm then let him off? Xx
Hi @Stephanie Green you are right to be concerned, and I'm sure some members won't agree with me as 'labradors are bouncy when young etc. etc.' I was only discussing this type of behaviour with other trainers/behaviourists at a conference at the weekend. Any behaviour that a dog finds rewarding will be repeated and that includes self-rewarding behaviours. It really isn't a case of a dog being 'dominant' or 'submissive' in play. Your friend's dig was offering appeasement body language to get your boy to stop which he ignored. That's bad manners/lack of skilks not dominance. It is important that you prevent your boy from practicing the rough play/bullying before it becomes a truly learned and rewarding behaviour, and it really doesn't take many repetitions for a dog to learn a rewarding behaviour. I would pop him on a lead to prevent play with other dogs for a short while, then allow calm hellos. When you do allow play keep it short and interrupt before he becomes over aroused and moves into 'bully' mode.
My 10 month puppy loves to play with our 10 year old Lab. I have noticed what I see as a raise in the boisterous nature of their play recently as the puppy gets bigger and stronger. I monitor it very carefully and call ‘enough’ when it’s getting a bit much but they generally ignore me!!! DH has more luck and manages to show humour in the process . The older one rarely shows signs of not wanting to play, in fact she is just as much ‘up’ for a good play these days as the younger one . I would be concerned if she showed different signs and would separate them. Having said all that, I can understand why you are concerned @Stephanie Green and I do see there is a need to step in.
The other dog lying down and looking at him might actually be an incentive to play! I would say your boy is showing all the normal tendencies of a young male lab, and I think you need to strike a balance between allowing him to learn how to read other dogs' body language properly, and at the same time not allowing him to bother other dogs unnecessarily.
There is also a significant difference between 'rough' play between companion dogs i.e. those living in the same household and 'stranger' dogs - those met in parks, training classes etc. If in doubt about acceptable play with another dog I often pose the question 'would you be a happy if a large mastiff/bulldog/akita/labrador etc (breed dependant on dog in question) started 'playing' with your dog like that would you be happy? If not, why not?'
This is very true. Dogs will often be very rough with their 'friends' and that is acceptable as they understand each other and know each others' limits. But I do think it is important, particularly with male dogs, to let them play so they learn doggy behavior rules, while helping them to understand when they are overstepping the boundaries.
Yes. Tatze plays very rough with her best friend, who is the same age. But she’s gentle with the pups until they grow up. She doesn’t tend to play at all with dogs she doesn’t know. A quick sniff and the occasional chase is all. .
Hi @Steph, Gosh! I felt like I was reading about my own mad chocolate labrador then! At that age 10 months, he was a real handful. Interestingly reading your post I note how well you had socialised your labrador. I say this because if I could turn back time I would have done things a bit differently. When we socialise a naturally rambunctious young dog, we tend to think that we must introduce and allow our dogs to play with every dog they see...after that's socialising right? Well no. Socialising just means getting our dogs comfortable with their everyday environment, and this varies from dog to dog depending on their individual temperament. What it can translate to if we are not careful, is the dog learning that it is OK to meet/run up/play with every dog it meets. So hold that thought for a moment. What else is happening to a young dog? Well, a hormone surge for one. This can really affect the perception of boundaries, and make them less aware of another dogs body language. There is also a competitively driven sexual element rising here too, especially in young entire dogs. If we summarise the above, it can look like this...a naturally over-friendly adolescent dog, who thinks that it is OK to play with every dog it meets and struggles to put the brakes on in playtime. Now it not the dogs fault they feels like this, however our responsibility as owners is to ensure that play is always under threshold, by that I mean the dog is still responsive to basic cues and not over excited. When you think he is not, absolutely step in and calmly remove your dog from the situation. How I managed this was to not allow my dog to play with strange dogs. I used a long line to allow freedom, and reinforced heavily my dog recalling back to me (on the long line) I only allowed a brief meet and greet with around 1 in 4 dogs, to build a pattern in my dog. Play dates were great, however, as above play was very closely supervised. Play dates though were always with dogs who were very comfortable with play, and weren't of a nervous disposition. It's great that you already have a plan to start gundog training. This will help build a degree of impulse control in your lad. It also helps when the other dogs are also calm and not in play mode, I expect this will be the set up at your gun dog classes. For a young dog to be calm when everyone else wants to play is almost impossible! Good luck with your training, especially at your gundog classes, would love to hear how you get on
Hi @Stephanie Green , I think you've had great advice already, but just to add my experience with Cassie, now 18 months. I've never had a Lab before (other gundogs and collie's) and definitely have the rambunctious over friendly end of the spectrum! Although, at 18 months she appears to be calming down. I definitely agree with this. And this, I would never underestimate the effect of hormones on their behaviour. Cassie has just finished her second season and both times in the days leading up to the start there has been a massive increase in her desire to interact with other dogs of either sex. Both times I misinterpreted it, the first time thinking it was puppiness, and the second time thinking that all my training had suddenly disappeared and all was lost! I'm mentioning this because with a bitch there is a clearer picture of what is happening hormonally, but with young dog it must be more difficult as it doesn't have a beginning or end.
With a young male dog, there are clinically evident markers of testosterone. Testosterone surges in pre-pubertal males occur between 5/6 months rising to a peak around 10months old before levels plateaux and stay fairly constant until doggy equivalent of middle age. Testosterone, when it surges, can give rise or exacerbate unwanted behaviours in dogs such as competitiveness, pushing boundaries in play or just generally being obnoxious! You often hear dog owners say "Oh my Mollie doesn't like young dogs!" hmm I wonder why? With regard to a female and seasons, there is a definite change in mood with Bramble before during and after her season. Now she has finished she is back to her playful self . When I have time I will try and look into evidence for this
Great advice from everyone thank you! I think the self reward behaviour part is very accurate for our situation! I'm going to purchase a long line and reinforce recall around distractions and not allow a greet with all dogs. Currently out on a walk and he's being a delight! I need to practice on calming myself too as I get so annoyed with him and he knows it then he's won when i start shouting and chasing him!! I'll let you know how we get on on Saturday at our class thanks everyone these forums really help you feel your not alone!! Xx
Hi everyone Update for you all... We have joined a gundog class and its been amazing! Buddy loves every minute he is there. Our trainer has helped me to understand his behaviour and assured me he is not aggressive just a dominant boy with some dogs!! I now know how to spot it and how to handle him So very happy mum and buddy X
That's really good to hear As a trainer/behaviourist just wondering whether your trainer only uses positive reward / reinforcement training as his use of 'dominant' is a bit of a red flag for me ..
Great to hear!!!! My dogs both absolutely adore their gundog training too, and I think being around and working alongside other dogs helps them learn self-control. I'm always amazed at how there can be six or seven dogs waiting to do a task, and there is never a fight. At a competition there may be 40 or so dogs, and they are all so concentrated on their work, that they mostly don't bother with each other. The same goes for an actual shoot - loads of dogs in the back of a landrover or in the trailer being taken to the next drive, and despite being pretty much squashed together, they all manage to get along.
