Hey guys, hoping to get your opinion, my fox red lab bailey is 2 and a half years old. He has had a phobia of fireworks since a puppy, we were living in Leeds for 2 years and he would be awful around bonfire night week and then fine after that! We moved to Durham 4 month ago and he hears a lot of gun shots on a daily basis on walks were we now live and at local parks surrounding us. He has developed a massive phobia of the gun shots, fireworks and even car doors slamming shut! It's awful to watch and he will barely leave the house. Had a few incidents where he has heard them on walks and his under fence/shaking so much he can't walk etc. Took him to vets and they have put him on anxiety tablets and took him to a behaviourist to help us with this phobia.... behaviourist has told us to use a slip lead as he has too much feeedom off his lead and when he hears a bang, that's why he runs away/back to the car. He has suggested that we always use a slip lead on walks to show him that bangs aren't scary and to play with him on walks to distract him etc. I'm just not sure about using the slip lead? I don't like the idea of him thinking he has to walk and face his biggest phobia or chokes himself. Obviously he has improved on the slip lead as he has to walk, he isn't enjoying him self at all but not sure if he will when he realises that bangs aren't scary? What should I do? Any advice is appreciated xx
Hello and welcome! Um.... sorry, but the advice to use a slip lead is complete and utter b******s! I have a dog with severe noise phobia and anxiety, who is medicated against it (Fluoxetine). Here is a log of our progress since last year: https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/willows-noise-phobia-medication-journal.18456/ She needs to feel safe, if she's forced or coerced into situations where she's afraid, it makes her worse. Making a severely phobic dog "face their fears" is cruel and counter-productive. So, no, please don't do that. How long has your dog been on the medication? It took Willow a good 6 weeks for the Fluoxetine to start kicking in and still longer until it was in full effect. I know not all drugs behave the same. We've made massive progress with her over the last year, but it's definitely not something that will ever be "fixed". You'll see in my log how I've managed to get her happy - even excited - by the sound of gunshot, but she's still, and always will be, an anxious dog who is really affected by changes in her routine. I've learnt not to put any pressure on her; if she chooses to go out, great. If not, that's her choice. I don't even try to get her to go out any more if her body language is telling me "not right now, thanks". She has great fun when she's out, but if she's not feeling up to it, that's her prerogative. If we're out and something upsets her, it's my job to take her straight back to where she feels safe. If I don't, I'm betraying her trust. I've been there, trying to "work her through it". It doesn't work. When she's shaking or displaying some of her other anxious behaviours (leaping at my face) then there's no way she's in any frame of mind to learn it's OK. It's not OK. She has to go home to safety. Distraction doesn't work - would you be distracted if you were in a situation where you were really scared? Sounds like that behaviourist needs to experience owning a dog with severe anxiety. I do feel for you, it's not easy having a scared dog; it's heartbreaking at times. Please do keep us updated. There are a few of us here in the same position, so we can all sympathise and offer a shoulder to cry on when you need it.
Hi and welcome ! I only used a slip lead on my dogs when they had perfected the art of lose lead walking , prior to this I would never have used one because of potential damage to their throat if they pull , I am staggered that the use of one has been recommended in this way. It is widely recognised now that saturation to the fear , whatever the fear is , only makes matters worse as their fears become more heightened so its a case of desensitising very slowly indeed , real baby steps . You can buy CD`s on Amazon , of noises like fireworks , thunder and general banging and clatterings , which you play at home as you are busy doing things . The noise starts off very low level , its intended to get them used to it in a relaxed environment whilst you are there , definitely worth trying .
Welcome to the forum! I don't really have any advice to offer but to say I live in Darlington! It's nice to have another northerner on the forum
I too have a dog with severe noise phobia, like yours even a car door slam mind shut in the street while he was inside set him off. Not helped either by lots of building works going on in our street either. My story is very similar to Fiona's (Snowbunny), she is much better at recording her progress with Willow than I've been but you're welcome to read my thread "Too scared to go outside" They need lots of encouragement and gentle support, and so do you. so feel free to express your feelings here too. It helps knowing you're not on your own dealing with a fearful dog. We are here to help through our own experiences.
Hi there - I've no advice to add (I am lucky that my boy Pongo has never been scared of anything as far as I know) - but welcome to the forum! I've found this to be a wonderful, friendly place with lots of really knowledgable and experienced people to offer advice and support. I hope you find it as much help as I have. Welcome to Bailey too! Rosie
While I am not averse to a properly trained and used slip lead I don't understand the connection between it and a severe noise phobia. ?? Unless you need to use something he cannot escape from and in that case you could use a limited slip lead (a martingale is a limited slip collar) or a harness but forcing either without de-sensitizing training for the noise might even make things worse. He is afraid of fireworks and gunshots? Our ESS, who OH hunted, was terrified of fireworks, also thunder. But gunshots? My problem if someone else was out hunting in the bush was she might run TOWARD the gunshots, in case there was a downed bird to retrieve. Gunshot meant good things to her. Maybe there is training to show good things with one sound phobia at a time?
Yes, but there is a big difference between a bog standard fear of noise and a severe phobia. If your dog is truly phobic, then there is no desensitisation that is possible; even at the quietest volumes, the noise will cause an extreme reaction. It's not just the level of the noise, it's the tone. Training with other tones does nothing to address that one and you can't deal with that one because your dog is terrified even if it hears it at a huge distance. Last year, Willow would start shaking in the house when she heard an avalanche blast that was barely within my range of hearing. OK, dogs have better hearing than us, but it wasn't the volume that was the problem. Making it even quieter would have made zero difference to her; she was just terrified of that tone of noise. This is where people who don't have experience of living with these severe phobias can struggle to understand. Normal desensitisation and counter-conditioning protocols are impossible because you simply cannot get it quiet enough. You can't get enough distance. You can't use recorded sounds; it completely changes the sound. Then you take it to the next level and the dog that really finds it hard to recover from these experiences. Shadow is an anxious dog, very nervous and jumpy, but he recovers almost instantly. He doesn't suffer much from trigger stacking, because he can move on from each individual scary experience. Willow holds them with her for days, and every tiny additional incident just stacks up and makes her even worse. You need to be able to get your dog peace for at least a week for true recovery from an anxiety attack, but when you live somewhere where the triggers (hunting, avalanche blasting, birds swooping, whatever affects your dog) are unpredictable, then you are a bit stuck. For Willow, medication has been life-changing, but it is still something that we have to manage. I'm learning all the time what is the best approach, but we're getting there and making big changes. So, yes, a dog that was terrified of gunshot can now get excited when she hears it, as long as she's expecting it. If it's unexpected, she'll still get scared. We'll change that in time with more training, now that we can work her around gunshot, but before medication? No, a distant pop of a shotgun that was barely audible would shut her down, make her unresponsive and unable to take food. There are no training opportunities available with a dog that is that scared.
Thanks so much for your response! Can't believe I've just came across this website, I thought I would never find anyone in the same situation as me and feel like a lot of people don't understand what he's going through and think 'he's fine' kind of thing! He has been on medication for a couple of weeks and I can't see any difference at all! I'll keep going with it as got 2 months worth of the vets so hopefully I'll notice a difference before the 8 weeks are up! I'm going to have a proper read through your forum and see wilows progress ☺️ It's really difficult for me because bailey is my first ever dog! So it's all new, so when I went to see this behaviourist I took his advice because he is a professional in this field and I'm not! But it breaks my heart making him walk when I can see he isn't enjoying it, don't get me wrong he sometimes gets going and enjoys it after about 10/15mins so unsure if I should continue and he needs that encouragement and to be pushed a bit? Xxx
Thanks so much for your response all these comments are helping a lot! basically Bailey is always off the lead, and every time he hears a bang or noise he runs back to the car or if he doesn't know his way to the car in a bush to hide, it's now got to the point where he won't go to any new places because he doesn't know his way back to the car. The behaviourist said that this is because he has too much control and is off the lead so it's a learnt behaviour that he runs away from the noise and being on a lead will show him it's ok and Nothing to be afraid of. He suggested the slip lead because I said he is so strong and heavy I can't just keep him out, he drags me to the car or sits down and won't walk and he's too heavy for me to carry! Xx
Hey! Thanks for your reply, i thought I would never find anyone else in the same situation! I'll deffo have a read of your forum! How do I find it? Haha sorry only joined this website tonight Xx
I wonder what the qualifications of this behaviourist are... Good thing you have questioned the advice that person gave He’s just really afraid. When he’s afraid making him stay around the scary situation or noise will only make him even more afraid. You’ve done the right thing in the past by letting him run back to the car where he feels safe. Is there anywhere you can go for an outing where he can see the car, with the car doors open, all the time? I think he needs to feel that he has an escape route to his safe place. Even if it’s just a little wander, a sniff and a bit of training near the car.
The connection between the fear of any loins noise and the slip lead is that bailey will not go on any walks where he has been spooked but won't go on any new walks either as he feels if a noise is to go off then he doesn't know his way back to the car which is his safety. So I'm struggling to walk him anywhere. When I have walked him somewhere and he has heard for example a gun shot he will try to run away to the car or under a bush or something for safety. The link with the slip lead is that the behaviourist said that he has too much freedom and is in control to much and that's why he runs away because we give him the option to, and said that every time we take him home after hearing a bang we are reinforcing his fear, showing him there is something to be scared of, so said he needs to be on a lead at all times so I can control him and so that he isn't a danger to him self - running away etc. I can't control him on a normal lead when he is like that becuse he is so determined to get away and he is so strong , so said the slip lead would keep him out and show him there is nothing to be scared of and carry on the walk
The behaviourist is deffo qualified and has good reviews! I have just been limited to who we can see as our insurance only covers behaviourists who are registered under certain bodies. He is an ex police dog trainer too? I'm not sure if they are good? It's my first time dog so new to all of this. Yes can deffo take him somewhere where he can see the car ☺️ He loves the beach and it's the only place he is fully happy but it's a 3min drive each way so can't really do that twice a day with him!
People who provide training or behaviourist services can have very varied qualifications and there are different schools of thought that different trainers follow. Some of these schools of thought are very outdated. The slip lead advice, the advice that Bailey has too much freedom to do what he wants, the advice that he’s ‘in control’ and the advice to prevent him from getting away - these things all indicate that this trainer/behaviourist is very old school and hasn’t kept up his own training and learning in the field of dog behaviour. His advice to you shows that he doesn’t know how to help someone with a severely anxious dog. You were not too know this at first though! You did feel uncomfortable with the advice, or suspected it might not be right, and that’s great - your suspicions were spot on. You’ve also done exactly the right thing in working with your Vet to try anti-anxiety medications
This is just nonsense, sorry You’ll read on my log that I made a mistake which means I can create a fearful response in Willow; basically, by using a certain soft tone of voice when I think there’s something she will react to, but before she reacted, has created a response where when she hears that tone of voice she thinks there must be something to be scared of and becomes fearful. My bad, and you have to be careful you don’t create predictors like this. But allowing him to escape from something he’s already been scared by is a very different thing and is the humane response. It will not reinforce his fear (why would allowing him to get away from the thing he’s scared of make him more scared?) but will show him that you are to be trusted in allowing him to escape. I understand that he is very strong, but using a slip lead with a lunging dog is the same as using a choke chain; it stops the pulling by causing the dog pain. Imagine you’re in such a fearful state that you’re trying to run away, but when you try, you have pain inflicted on you. Is that going to make you more or less afraid of the thing you’re trying to escape from? Many police dog trainers train by force and intimidation, rather than through wholly force-free, modern methods. Not all, of course, but I am always wary when I hear someone is a police dog trainer. It sounds like this one is living up to my stereotype and I would urge you to find another who is entirely force-free.
