Hello new to forum! hoping to go and se a new Labrador Puppy soon,from a KC registered Breeder. Been advised that hip scores for Sire are 5/8 and Dame are 3/4 All other checks are clear ,including eyes and Elbows are 0/0 Are these scores ok? thanks
Hi and welcome to the forum. The median (average) hip score for Labradors is 9* (the sum of both numbers) and personally I wouldn't take a puppy from parents with higher scores than that. I would be looking as close to 0:0 as possible. I would take the dam's score if the sire was close to a 0:0, but a 5:8? Not for me, sorry. Of course, low scores don't guarantee your pup won't suffer from dysplasia, but higher scores in the parents carry a higher risk. As for elbows, I believe that no-one should breed from dogs with anything but 0:0 elbows, so that's a bit more of just getting a tick in the box and walking away from any litter where the parent has anything but this. The hip score is more of a judgement call. *https://www.bva.co.uk/uploadedFiles...ysplasia-breed-specific-statistics-jul-15.pdf
Hi there and welcome to the forum. Great to hear you are currently thinking about all the right things when considering your new puppy. Health tests are very important, they give you the best chance of a healthy dog, although they can't guarantee this. Hip and elbow scores are one of the criteria to be considered, alongside other health tests, breeding CoI, as well as the temperament. The environment the breeder is keeping her dogs, particularly if the pups are kenneled or reared in the home, particularly if important if you are planning on a pup as a family companion. Pups bred in a home enviroment are socialised to lots of different sounds, comings and goings of people and visitors plus textures vs being kenneled. Median hip scores for labradors: Retriever (Labrador) total measured: 51494 range 0 - 106 combined totals over 15 years = 9 median over 5 years = 9 (up to Dec 2016) This is what the Kennel Club says with regard to above: "Hip scores should be considered along with other criteria as part of a responsible breeding programme, and it is recommended that breeders choose breeding stock with hip scores around and ideally below the breed median score, depending on the level of HD in the breed. HD status of parents, siblings and progeny for Kennel Club registered dogs should also be considered, and these together with a three generation Health Test Pedigree may be downloaded via the Health Test Results Finder, available on the Kennel Club’s online health tool Mate Select (www.mateselect.org.uk). In addition, estimated breeding values (EBVs) are available for breeds in which a significant number of dogs have been graded, via the same link." So basically, have a look at the last three generations if possible. Don't be afraid to quiz the breeder, age of dam and sire, working, field or a mix of the two? Have you seen the parents, very importantly what is the temperament like of both parents? If you are happy with everything, then I personally don't see a problem with the hip scores.
Sorry cross-posted with @snowbunny, absolutely concur re: elbows, I am slightly more open re: hips, although the scores are a fraction high, I wouldn't exclude them entirely.
And that's just it - it's a judgement call and these scores are only part of the picture. Definitely look at the EBV and COI as Kate mentioned in her post. For me, I'm risk averse by nature, so I wouldn't consider a puppy from this litter, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't
Thank you all for replies. The litter was 9 pups and two left now ,born 7/1/18. Its a big decision to make and appreciate all your advice. Pups are quite expensive too but look so lovely !
You've already heard from the experts, but another bit of advice I heard from several breeders is to take into account the balance of the scores. So for example a 2/8 would be more worrisome than a 5/5 even though the total score is the same. Also if the sire has been used on other litters than the current one and those puppies are old enough to have been tested and in the KC database, have a look. 0/0 sire does not guarantee puppies with 0/0 hips. Interestingly, even though 0/0 is the holy grail, there are sires with higher scores yet better track records for their puppies. Finally, don't take this as gospel, but several breeders told me that due to a change in how the KC records the test scores, this has driven median hip scores way down. In a nutshell, the current system allows higher scores to opt out of having the score recorded. So if you are looking at past generations with seemingly much higher hip scores, keep in mind that there has been a drastic skew downwards. Having said that, I've done a lot of looking at pups lately and haven't seen anyone admit to breeding from a sire with 5/8 scores. "Admit" being the key word, as several people told me off the record that they felt that the super low scores that everyone chases today are pretty meaningless and they wouldn't be all that bothered by scores even in the teens and 20s. I personally would be bothered by scores like that (I'm in the @snowbunny cautious camp) but I found the comment interesting, especially as I heard it multiple times. All pups look lovely. Jokes aside, if "quite expensive" means more than the going rate for a purebred, you need to ask why. Famous kennel? Famous sire/dam? Big show wins? Trial wins? There are plenty of good stud dogs out there with much better scores, so just ask yourself what the criteria the breeder is using for the cost, and if that criteria is important to you. Good luck and let us know how you get on. It's a tough decision. Really, I know and sympathise.
I'm currently researching for my next pup and I would probably be happy with the hip scores depending upon the COI and EBV. Is there a full health check on sire and dam - not just an eye certificate. As the owner of a dog with elbow dysplasia from 0:0 parents and no previous occurrence in litters I don't necessarily have alot of faith in elbow scores but that said I woildn't consider a pup where a score was anything except 0:0 or elbows haven't even bern tested
I used to think that, but I read an article (on The Institute of Canine Biology, I can't find it right now but it's there somewhere) that said that in the case of very uneven scores, there is no evidence this is congenital and so is most likely the result of trauma. "No evidence" doesn't mean "isn't true", but it was an interesting read nonetheless. And, if this is the case, ask yourself why there are two left. Most of the well-known kennels will be over-subscribed for their litters way before they are born.
Good point. Along those lines, I was also told several times to beware as to at what age the hips are scored as they can definitely change with time.
Welcome to the forum. You should also check whether the parents have been tested for exercise induced collapse (EIC). Not all breeders have their dogs tested for this, but it’s an important factor as it limits a dog’s activity if they suffer from it. I didn’t know about it when I chose my puppies, but it’s worth checking. Good luck - and let us know how you get on.
Out of interest what were they referring to as 'very uneven scores'? Hips are scored from 0 to 106 under the BVA scheme so a definition of 'very uneven' would no doubt help decision making. Of interest also is the general advice from vets that no puppy is born with HD.
I'll see if I can find the article later. It was a few months ago I read it so the details are fuzzy!
Hmm, I can't find it. I wonder if they've absorbed the article into their paid-for course. It had all sorts of interesting information in there. Apparently at one point, almost every Labrador suffered from HD and Guide Dogs culled around 90% of their puppies to eradicate it! I did find this study which is quite interesting, suggesting that asymmetric HD can be caused by congenital anomalies in the spine. Which makes sense. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28094414
This article touches on it: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/hips.html "...our observations of the kennel populations of giant breeds and their siblings living in private homes have led to the conclusion that there is no such thing as congenital unilateral hip dysplasia, but only acquired unilateral hip dysplasia."
Interesting findings, but a very small number (138 dogs out of 4000 tested) affected. There is also no mention of a control group of dogs i.e. dogs that had not been identified with HD issues undergoing the same testing regime.
I tend to go to Fitzpatrick Referrals for info on Hip and Elbow dysplasia (amongst other problems) and their info says pretty much the same https://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/orthopaedic/hip-dysplasia/ Definitely food for thought as to how we raise our precious pups
Here is the entire retrospective analysis for reference: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ad22/73c9eb3fe12ad0d56e76104c971e205224fc.pdf Very interesting and indeed logical to assume that a spinal abnormality has the potential have a deleterious impact on hips. Even more so if they identify a genetic component. The methodology is good, plus the p values are robust meaning the results are highly significant.
