I walk Shamas on a harness, and I love it. He's generally pretty good. Every once in a while, something will happen and he'll get distracted...walk in circles, get turned around, generally get hard to turn in the right direction from the middle of his back. At those times I miss having his Martingale, which he slipped out of, and I have misplaced. I don't like the way his regular collar fits with his harness- his skin bunches up betweeen the harness and collar. and it just doesn't look natural. I could loosen the collar, but it'd be useless then. I had considered grabbing a slip lead, and tossing it in my pocket, for those times when I just need to get Shamas walking in a straight line again. I thought I could slip it on, get him going steady again, and drop it back in my pocket. He's accustomed to direction from the back of his ears, because thats where I sat the martingale until the day he slipped it and ran off home.... so I don't really need to train him to the use of it. My one concern is choking...but don't labs used as gundogs get trained on simple slip leads? I'd love thoughts on the matter.
I don't use one because it would hurt my dogs throat. I be had one dog with LP I don't want another. The use if slip leads have been discussed in the site before if you look it up you will find many if the reasons for not using one.
I use slip leads for my dogs when training/working. They are absolutely not recommended for dogs that pull. You would end up choking the dog. My dogs start out as puppies on harnesses, then flat collar and lead, and only when I am confident they will not pull do I use a slip lead. Even then, in times of high arousal/distraction, I revert back to a harness if needed.
Yes, many gun dogs are trained using a slip lead and lead jerks. In other words, they are punished physically for pulling rather than being taught to walk nicely. It's also generally considered punishing to have the collar sitting right up behind the ears - it's a very sensitive position so any pressure causes pain. Like Kate, I also use slip leads on all my dogs in gun dog training environments where they have already been trained not to pull, and in the show ring with Luna. She was taught at a very young age that show lead = business and so just doesn't pull on it, even in the hugely exciting environment of the show ring. I show her on a loose lead, not pulled up tight behind her ears as you often see. Until she gets in the ring, however, she is on a flat collar or harness because I know the likelihood of her pulling is very high and I won't risk her tightening the slip around her throat. As @SwampDonkey says, this can severely damage a dog's throat. You can get a limited slip lead which won't tighten all the way. Lots of people at early stage training at the gun dog club I've been to (positive reinforcement club) use the Tuffstuff limited slips. These are great because they are also wide and so don't put anything like the same pressure on the throat as a normal round slip would: http://www.tuffstuff-ltd.co.uk/p/23/limited-slip-lead I think they are the best of both worlds, but would still only use one if I was pretty sure my dog wasn't going to pull.
In Germany, slip leads without a pull stop are illegal, and considered animal abuse. You can imagine how this was taken at first by the gundog community... But now everyone just accepts it, and everyone uses slip leads with an integrated stop for training and working. For normal, everyday walks I also use a wide flat collar and lead, and would only ever use a slip lead on a dog that doesn't pull.
In the last two training classes I have been to the trainers (2 different trainers for the 2 different levels) mentioned that I should have Harley on a flat collar for classes. And I agree. When I am sure she isn't going to lunge. You can obviously never be 100% sure of anything but right now she is still likely to lunge and pull when excited and it is decreasing in frequency but it isn't where I am comfortable to have her on the flat collar only. She goes on walks on her harness. And I hear what you say about the harness and lead being everywhere, I use a front attaching harness so if she unexpectedly changes sides or direction it goes around her chest in the wrong way. And then we stop and I use the chance to run a hand over her or say "silly lead, look where is hides" and she stands still for it. So much as it is nice to walk I have also found so many lessons to be had during the walk, despite the walk. Patience for her, patience for me. I just want to add that today I saw someone jerk and yank a dog around and it was really awful. The dog was distracted and boisterous but geez, this person was taking out their frustration on their dog. And I am sure you aren't doing that with Shamas and I remember how utterly frustrating it was to try and walk a young Harley on the normal harness where she lunged and pulled but she has grown out of it and I am so grateful to this forum and the trainers I have had that I can say she has grown out of it, not they she is AFRAID to pull because of pain or strangulation.
My girl used to pull loads. Even though she is so much better I wouldn’t risk a slip lead just in case. She occasionally will pul slightly on her lead and collar, but I call her back to me and do a circle or behind me or something to change her behaviour. I find this works really well for us.
I only use a harness now as if Rory pulled or lunged it would hurt me too much. I have to be so careful at the moment. He's so good but will still try for food on the floor which we get a lot of round our way. I worry about hurting him.
I can't even imagine when Monty isn't walked in a back fastening harness. Not that he pulls an awful lot all the time, I've spent many hours on loose lead walking and he's improved massively, but not always consistently. However he's walked by at least 3 different people during the week , plus us, and I've seen how excited he gets when new dogs arrive at the door to pick him up So for now and the forseeable he's on a harness and I'm happy with that decision. He has enough joint problems already so I err on the side of caution. A slip lead would never enter my head except in some sort of emergency.
I carry a slip lead in the car. I don't use it on Coco, he might lunge. Coco wears a back fastening harness. It is there in case I come across a stray dog who need to be caught.
I meant to add, I'd infinitely prefer a few minutes pulling on a harness that is an inconvenience to me, but no harm to him, than a few seconds of pulling on a collar, or worse, slip lead, which could cause damage to him. He doesn't know any better, but I do.
I can actually imagine how this was taken by the community- my dad's a user of the Prong,a nd is quite upset about the Toronto ban of Prongs within city limits. I don't plan to attach a lead to the slip- it's only purpose would be to turn Shamas around. his lead would be fastened to his harness, as it is now. He's not a horrible puller, as long as the harness isn't allowed to get too loose. I've worked with him a lot over the winter, and his latest harness is a good fit. He pulls on front-leaders, ironically....I think he doesn't like the lead at the front of his chest? anyway, he got blisters from the pulling on the easywalk. My thought on a slip is that it is small, easily slipped into my pocket, and dropped onto his neck to turn him around at times of distraction, when I have trouble getting him to face in a straight line from the middle of his back. I love the idea of a limited slip, as I have no intention of choking my dog- that's how he got off the martingale in the first place- I didn't tighten it enough lol. But I'm completely open to other suggestions for that quick turnaround during a time of distraction
Could you use high value treats or a favourite toy during times of distraction to lure Shama? You could clicker train to walk in a straight line.
What I like to do when this happens is use my body and hands to kind of herd the dog I'm working with. With my shelter walkies lately, I'm getting a lot of practice, because the dogs do tend to get really distracted and go every which way, especially for the first 10 minutes or so. I also usually have treats (lures) somewhere on me, but don't like using them to steer a dog. I've found some dogs start to not want to move forward at all without knowing that you've got a treat in your hand. What I mean by herding is using your hands or body to nudge them in the right direction (not hitting or applying force). This may mean if your dog Shamas keeps trying to go the left, you shift around to his left side, block him from going that way and then shuffle a bit to the right to get him going in a new direction. Sometimes touch on the side of their faces will also get you enough focused attention to shift direction. As I used to use a head collar and know from that experience that animals (including humans) are more likely to go in the direction their head is pointd in, sometimes I'll go to the side of the dog, bend down to talk to them and stroke their head and then shuffle against them while gently turning their head in the direction I want them to go. And if any movement starts in the direction I want to go, I give lots of praise and excited movement in that direction to try to build up momentum. This is all kind of hard to explain, but I really think "herd" sums it up best. Now, most of the dogs I've been walking are mastiff mixes and VERY slow dogs. The problem is that they kind of just stop, or go in circles sniffing, or decide they don't want to go away from the shelter. Applying it to a young bouncy Lab may be more challenging, though I did this dance with a young-ish bouncy Lab on Friday and it worked just fine. It wasn't perfect, but we did move in the right direction - though I imagine bystanders thought I was a nutcase.
I'll try the herding, with hands. Head collar was a bad experience for him- I used it early on, and he spooked(not AT the collar, but while on it), getting in a tug of war with his own nose, and hurting himself. Shoulder-taps and rear-taps are often used at home, when training Shamas in the proper behavior around the cats..but then he's walking very slowly, and paying attention to me for cues. as well, he'll place himself so that his ear is at my hand, so I have a light touch on his head to guide his forward movement. I'll try this at the corners. I did find his Martingale this morning too, so I can pocket that again Shamas is 5, and smart...though I suspect he didn't get any formal training...at least not in English. I have no idea what his history is, he could have been trained in another language for all I know. He's picking up very quickly, and though he came to me very reactive, he gets more balanced with each week that passes. The trainer who assed him at Petsmart says hes about Intermediate level, based on the work I've done with him so far.
Try training a U-turn. I have been working on this myself with my lot. The way I do it is, I hold a treat in my right hand, I slide my left hand down the lead so it's short, say "this way!" and lure him around as I U-turn with the treat under his nose. He should turn eagerly - we're practicing this in very low arousal environments at first, you understand. Once he has the idea, the movement of your left hand down the lead should let him know you're about to turn, so you don't need the lure, but reward him from your right hand immediately you have turned. I practice this several times on each walk and the dogs love the game. The bounce around to change direction. We now move several paces at a brisk walk or run before treating. By doing this, I practice my own mechanics and the dog learns the "game" in a low distraction environment before you start taking it on the road and using it for real. I have used it when a load of off-lead spaniels were running towards us and it worked amazingly. This would be FAR quicker than getting a slip collar out of your pocket and then pulling him round on it.
Sorry, what I said was kind of confusing. I didn't mean to use the head collar on Shamas, just that having used on in the past made me think of the idea of getting the head and body going in the right direction. Sounds like Shamas already gets the hand cues, that's promising!
