I was delighted a few months ago to find a class to take Cassie to where I felt comfortable, and where we have been making such good progress especially working around other dogs -- the trainer is the one who helped me deal with Cassie's "mugging" behavior almost 12 months ago, and it's ok to use whatever techniques you've trained like hand touch, magic hands and clicker. So it has been worth the hours drive every other week. But last week there was a woman there that I haven't seen before with the most stunning looking GSP. Well my goodness this woman was scary -- she just kept barking out instructions to this lovely dog, as we were inside because of the weather it sort of dominated the whole session and I blimmin well hate that sort of behavior, I just want to shrink into a ball and go away. Anyway, at the end we were doing heeling between markers, either off lead or as loose as possible. First without food and then with food on each marker, the object being that the dogs don't eat the food, obviously. Well this woman stormed round shouting "no" and "leave it" and doing lead jerks. This poor dog, the trainer didn't say anything and I was gutted. When the lovely dog had to do it off lead, she did so, but kept sitting down to scratch herself. Cassie's first attempt was a bit of a b****s up, it was free buffet right, that the trainer had put down? By the end of the course though she'd got the idea, and then did it off lead really, really well. When we got to the end she sat by the last marker with that gorgeous look on her face ,you know, the one that says was that it? Did I do it right? Do I get my reward now? I love that +R teaches them to work out what is required, and that they are so happy to do so. Such a contrast to using aversives -- that poor Gsp just looked so worried. I know that Cass is far from perfectly behaved, but that's really down to her not having the best handler. But I'm so pleased that despite everything she's not been on the receiving end of any "old school" type training and is happy and confident. Last week in the vet's I picked up a leaflet about some new training classes starting very locally to me, force free, and have put our name down for an agility taster session, as soon as the ground dries, so I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes.
Maybe give the trainer a break. She might be working out how to get the woman to change her behaviour. Telling her in front of the class that she is doing it all wrong might not be the best thing to do....
Yes, your absolutely right, she's been very good , and that very thing has occurred to me. I hope that it is the case. She's very well established and I hope to be able to discuss it with her at some point.
We occasionally meet a woman who sounds similar to the one you described on our walks. She has a beautiful yellow lab who is a retired guide dog and the way she talks to him really upsets me. He nicked Joy's ball last time and she yelled 'No! Bad dog! Not a gentleman!' at him and also raised her hand to him,at which point he actually cowered. I said 'Oh, please don't hit him' and her reply was that she wasn't going to hit him but he needed to know who was the boss. I do wonder why he cowered, and have discussed the episode with a friend who has also met the woman when walking her own dog. She is of the opinion that she hits him. It's so distressing, the poor poor dog looks completely confused.Up until recently he must have been a very much loved companion and of course is incredibly well trained having been a guide dog. I'm sure his previous owner would be horrified to know what's happening to him now. It makes me so sad. On a brighter note, very well done you and Cassie, and yes, I do know that lovely look that says 'Did I do it right? Do I get my reward now?'
@Candy, it's just so horrid to witness things like you describe, especially when we know there are other ways. I felt so bad when everyone laughed because the dog at class sat down and scratched herself, but it's only because I understand now that that is a sign of anxiety. I just felt that it was giving the wrong message.
That’s a horrible way for a dog to be treated @selina27 and I can understand why you don’t want to be associated with it. As for the ex-guide dog, @Candy , it’s shocking that a dog who has worked all it’s life shouldn’t have a happy retirement. I wonder if you could contact Guide Dogs and let them know your concerns. I have given up working as a volunteer trainer at our local dog club because I disliked some of the intimidating techniques used in classes. I ended up falling out with the ‘senior trainer’ when I asked two trainers to move away from a dog in a class I was teaching as he was barking and clearly worried by them looming over him. I’m helping a couple of people individually at the moment.
Does the Guide Dog Ass. follow up on retired dogs? Might be worth dropping them a line for some guidance on this. If this is absolutely what is happening, difficult I know to tell, then they should know. I remember when I looked into a retired GD years ago, there were a lot of hoops and jumps to go through before I would be considered in adopting one.
Thanks for your replies. Yes, that's a good idea, contacting the Guide Dog Ass. I'll do that. I hate the feeling of standing by and doing nothing. I could be wrong about him being hit but the fact that he cowers when she raises her hand to him, even the fact that she does this at all concerns me, as does the way she shouts at him and the fact that she feels she has to show him that she's 'The Boss'.
@Candy I reported a woman in my village for locking her beautiful Guide Dog in the garden in all weathers and she never used him to guide her. The GD representative visited her and got back to me saying they found everything to be in "order", to this day I am astounded that they did, I was very upset by the process. She now has another Guide Dog and I don't know what happened to the other one I hope you have better luck than I did. xx @selina27 That's horrible, lets hope the Trainer is figuring out what to do. If not then you could have your say and leave. xx
Thanks for your reply, Helen. It saddens me so deeply that these wonderful dogs aren't always treated with the love and respect they deserve. I still have to give it a go though of course. Thinking about it, we are friends with a couple where the husband is registered blind and they have a sweet GD who has been a good friend to our previous lovely girl as well as our current little sweetheart. I think a word with them might be helpful. Let's see where we go from here.
It's exactly for this reason that I have no interest in running classes. If the trainer offers R+ training classes and you have someone who does lead jerks how receptive is that person likely to be if you mention it in front of the rest of the class? I'm sure the trainer very much wanted to step in/ take action but the risk is that you alienate the owner and lose any possibility of encouraging R+ methods and improving things for the dog. For a trainer it's not just about the dog - it's about the human on the other end of the lead as well.
Yes, of course it is. I'm fully aware of that, the reason I go to this trainers classes is for just that reason. She is the one who helped me deal with Cassie's difficult behaviour last year, gave me phone consultatations with no fee, and I hadn't even met her. And as I said Cassie and I have made great improvements since going to her classes and I feel a lot of loyalty to her. I don't want to just not go back because of this incident, if I change it will be because I can find a +R class that is 10 minute drive instead of 1 1/4 hours away. It's just bugging me.
I think I would have a quiet word with the trainer. She may be trying to think of the best way to deal with this...
Why not just give her a ring and explain how this incident has upset you? At least it gives her an opportunity to respond.
You must be feeling disappointed, especially after the way she helped you last year. You'd think as she advertises herself as positive, the woman you describe wouldn't have picked her classes. The trainer would probably welcome a call from you so she can vent too, although I hastily add that wouldn't be very professional! Best to have a different class lined up. I too travel quite a way to our class now but feel it's well worth it but maybe a change is good too. Everyone has different things to offer.
Unfortunately many, many dog owners have no idea what being a 'positive' trainer and only offering 'positive' training means.
Actually she doesn't, I found her when I searched for behaviourist. And as I say I've been more than happy. I know that the right thing to do is to express my concerns to her, it's just finding the right time.
Well, I sent a text to the trainer asking her to phone me regarding last Saturday's class, and she did so straightaway. I'm so pleased that I did -- she fully understood where I was coming from regarding the aversive methods used by the GSP handler, and informed me that this woman is better than she used to be and that she, the trainer is taking the softly softly approach so that this woman keeps coming to the classes so that hopefully in time will improve even more. It turns out this woman has been very ill herself and her husband has just died so she's in a bad place herself, so the situation calls for sympathetic handling. As a nurse myself, and having had a few major bereavements myself, I fully get all of this, so my trainer has racketed back up in my estimation But nonetheless, I still find it hard to deal with the lovely dog having to bear the brunt of all this through no fault of it's own. I hate it when animals are used as a crutch in this way, but it is better that she keeps attending the class, if the woman took her else where it could be a whole lot worse. The other good news is that she has a friend who also attends the class, who is fully on board with +R and who is working on changing this womans approach, she's lovely and has a super happy dog. I feel so much better now.
That sounds like a really good result. Whilst it's not great for you to watch, it sounds as though this training class is probably the best place for them to be. Hopefully you start to see some changes in her training.
