A well regarded positive gun dog trainer wrote this the other day and I liked it so much that I saved the quote. “Hunting for some dogs is more rewarding that retrieving. If you have a dog like this you have to train the retrieve as a cued behaviour rather than shaping the instinctive desire to retrieve.” I have done this with one of my labs and although it’s time consuming and has to be done in stages he has ended up as a lovely, calm reliable retriever. Something that I never would have thought at the start.
Thank you for this quote @Peartree. Sorry @selina27 I know this is Cassie’s log. I think I need to start a thread on how to teach a retrieve .
Yes, thank you @Peartree, I'm sure it will be helpful to me too. @Atemas, no worries, we are all in this together
I'm very pleased to have the book "Retrieving for all occasions", if nothing else it has given me plenty of options for engaging in play, and made me look at what pleases her and what she would consider a reward, I'd never really got beyond her being food motivated before -- the downside of that being that that a yummy pile of poo or a nicely fermenting rotting apple can often provide opportunities for self rewarding. I learnt tuggy game when she was a puppy but stopped it when she became far too rough with me at 12-15 months of age, but have reinstated it with good effect. It's not a massive motivator outside in the woods -- but what I have discovered from the book is that Miss Cassie can scarcely resist me pulling something along behind me! A wonderful discovery it is, it worked very well this morning so I will try to use this as much as possible with a rope type tug toy. We passed the apple pile in the woods today using this method. The woods are used by a mental health charity 3 days a week, they have a camp type set up where they among other things cook over a fire -- so guess what, there are scraps to be found, sausages even at times, and carrots which Cass loves. It's a battle I've lost so far, so rather than try recall, which will fail, I think I will try to ask her for something like heel work as we are approaching, and then release her to the camp kitchen as a reward. At least I know it's human food! I have also learnt that as far as praise rewards, non food, what she really loves is to be rubbed between her front legs and on her tummy, preferably with my face close to hers! I've known for ages that she dislikes a pat on the head. It's just great to have something to give me another approach, it all helps the bond, even if it doesn't increase her retrieving drive
I love reading your updates selina27. You are doing SO much with Cassie, really good stuff. I wish I could do half as much with Molly. So difficult with another - unexpected or planned for - dog as well. Well done and please keep posting updates x
We had sheep poo on the mountain today. Awesome! I used it for training "come away from sheep poo". Her reward? Being sent back to eat said sheep poo. Hell, she's going to do it anyway, I might as well make the most of it It's a really powerful tactic and I use it as much as I can.
@FayRose , thanks for your reply. I find that I really enjoy doing these things with her -- I do less actual walks and more training exercises when we are out in our usual haunts. As I am semi retired and my family grown up she is my focus in a way previous dogs were not, though I'm sure they were just as happy! @snowbunny, yes I think a case of turning things to our advantage! Cass doesn't really bother with horse/sheep/ cow poo, but otter and waterbird poo are a tasty snack, that doesn't bother me at all -- but hunting out my neighbours dog poo (which she does ) is not so good. Not sure I will be able to bring myself to release her to it for a reward, in any case she knows where it is and I don't, but I'm hoping that more tug games etc will keep her more engaged with me. I will pursue the releasing into the camp kitchen, and even the apple pile, as they are "proper" food.
I would never release a dog to poo as a reinforcer! Massive kudos for people who do and have confidence in that/don't immediately vomit with a poo eating dog....but no way would I let a dog rehearse that behaviour! I trained 'leave it' to mean 'abandon that right now' with a wippet game and it is genuinely a 100% positively trained 'leave it', is massively powerful, and is ALWAYS used for poo....2 years on and Betsy will sniff poo and turn towards me. Result.
Heh, eating sheep poo doesn't bother me in the slightest, no vomming involved . In the spring, the paths we walk are absolutely covered in it, so there's no walking around it. I could probably train the girls not to eat it, but since it doesn't bother me, life is too short! Willow has pretty much grown out of it, Luna may or may not. She certainly already seems less interested than she was last year. Both will still snaffle a bit if they're in the mood. Wild boar poo is a delicacy, though, and there has been a LOT of that around this winter - nice and crunchy, too. Yummy! Yesterday, they did find some human poo, though. Now that is vom-inducing. I picked it up in a poo bag and carried it with me. Ewwwwww!!!
I'm pretty chilled about rabbit, deer or boar poo too - the dogs think they are smarties! But I do think they can pick up worms from animal poop, so I keep their worming routine up to schedule. Oh god, the human poo thing is totally, utterly gross. Beyond vile. When your dog appears from behind a bush, licking his lips with a bit of loo paper hanging from the corner of his mouth... I generally find it pretty easy to recall my dogs from food or poop - as long as I am on it quickly enough. But if they are right on top of it, then I don't think I could stop them... Someone recently was feeding the wild boar their left-over bread rolls, and Merlin found the stash... He was thrilled, food in the woods!! Bonanza! I try to keep them near me and close enough that a stop whistle will work immediately (within about 20-30 meters), and am just vigilant if they start to slink off into the bushes.
Ah yes, the local farmer uses bread to get his sheep down off the mountain in the evening. So the paths are often completely covered in crumbs and the odd end of a loaf. Heaven for the dogs! Yesterday's one was right next to the path! OK, we were a way up into the mountains, but, still! I thought they were just having a sniff of a wee as it was right next to a tree, then I realised! Even Shadow was chowing down, and that is incredibly unusual for him. As I called them off, one of the girls obviously turned into him, so he ended up with a long brown streak along his side. I encouraged a lot of digging in the snow after that. Dogs, who'd have 'em?!
We went back to the group gundog training this morning, the first time for a month, for various reasons. I nearly didn't go, we've moved venue now and it takes place in a huge 20 acre field -- there are pheasants , there are deer, there are foxes .... the scent of which excite Cassie far more than picking up a dummy, so I question really whether it's worth going. But I did go, and kept her on her harness with longline. The first time the dummy was thrown she took no interest, didn't even look, I could see her nose going and she had zero interest in retrieving . Then the trainer threw her a rope toy which she grabbed when I picked it up and started playing tuggy, and released it on cue. This surprised me in the setting. From then on we progressed to a different dummy, which she then was very happily bringing back to me, until eventually I could let go of the line and she was enthusiasticly running out to it and returning, not always to my hand but she was at least retrieving, and was enjoying doing so. And she was quite quiet and calm around the other dog which was present, so a definite improvement there. BUT .. I did have the jumping , arm grabbing over the top behavior to contend with, which I can now deal with as per my companion dog trainer, but this means she has to wear her flat collar. I really hope the day will come when we can do this with just a slip lead -- something to work towards I guess. I will continue with tuggy at home -- I must try not to muddle her though by blurring the rules when at our group training. So as so often with Miss Cassie, when she was good she was very, very good and when she was bad she was bad
After a less than satisfactory session last week at gundog training I have decided to stop going, as Cassie just doesn't have a great desire to retrieve in that setting. We have benefited from attending, but it's clear that she would rather be hunting! I think sniffer dog would be her forte I will continue to do some retrieving myself in less exciting environments and there are plenty of things I can do and work on -- stop whistle and maybe teach a hunt cue. To be honest, I find that I just enjoy doing stuff with her as long as she is happy. And our companion class is going really well -- last week all the dogs worked really hard and Cassie was no exception. We did off lead heel around the school, outside, weaving in and out of 10 dogs with no treat given until the end ! I was thrilled to bits - 6 months ago I really couldn't see the day So there's lot's of positives.
It's so interesting how some dogs are just hard wired to retrieve, whereas others prefer hunting or agility or similar. Whatever floats your boat! The main thing is you have a great time working together, whatever it is you do, as that will increase your bond hugely. The companion class sounds great!
@Atemas , I am pleased with the book Retrieving for All Occasions, I think you wanted to know what I thought. I will continue to do the tuggy games which she enjoys at home, there's lots of good things in it, I think the most useful idea was to make a list of what she finds rewarding and it's surprising how many there are -- she does like praise especially if accompanied by stroking her back or between her front legs, but not her head. I can practice off lead heel and use releasing her to the organic compost heap in the woods or for fuss from her favourite people as the reward. So I'm pleased to have it.
Yes, it is interesting. I wanted to do gundog things as I like to see them working in the natural environment, but never mind. She's happy!
Thank you @selina27 for this. I am very interested in what people are doing with their young dogs and what they are using. I am really missing the class that Red and I went to last year and feel a bit as if I’m bumbling along at training - but I am quite laid back about this as we have time on our side. Like you, I feel the most important thing is a happy dog and finding out what they like .
I can identify with this -- I'm a shocker for half doing things but actually it hasn't really created a problem, in a way quite the reverse as it seems that I've done enough for her to absorb the basics and as she gets older and is undoubtedly is maturing she takes the world and all it's excitement much more in her stride things seem to fall into place, which is great. The fortnightly training class is such a great help though, and I'm looking forward to trying agility and scentwork. I think you did more at a younger age with Red than I did with Cass, so I definitely think you have time on your side.
