If you don't feel that it's for you and Cassie, that's fine - of course. But....I have one dog (Charlie) that wouldn't notice if he ran through fire for a retrieve, and another dog (Betsy) who is much more distracted by rabbits, birds etc. I view Betsy just as a different challenge, it's more about proofing and distraction training. I found this very boring and tedious at first, but then found the joy in it, and now we are progressing... There is lots that is right about deciding a massively exciting environment isn't where you dog needs to be retrieving right now, but don't give up - you can work through it in time. In a way, training massively high drive retrieve dogs to retrieve is well, sort of easy....but training other types of dogs is just as worthwhile and you can get a big kick out of achieving what you want with them. Plus, it teaches you lots as a handler. There are too many gundog trainers that can only train one type of dog - it's a good skill to be able to train any type of dog.
Thank you for this post Julie, I appreciate it. I will continue to do retrieving stuff at home, it's more that I don't want to put us in a situation where she gets frustrated and I feel upset with her, as happened last week, and I felt judged by the others present. I don't in the main care much what others think, but I know Cassie, and I just want to enjoy her.
Well I have been putting some effort into playing tuggy. I never felt very comfortable doing it with her as a puppy but I'm pleased I did as she does understand the rules it's clear to see. And I had to stop last year as during the phantom pregnancy/spring induced mugging behaviour she became very rough with me and even on one occasion ripped open my coat pocket to get at the toy! So I have for afew weeks been consistently practicing the Hold with reverse luring exercise, and we seem to be getting somewhere. Especially if I choose the times she's looking to engage with me anyway. And now I understand that playing it again is the reward I have been throwing it for her to retrieve and she happily does outside in the garden today which believe it or not is quite a big deal. I have a question though -- I'm still not very good at bringing the game to a stop, I'm not sure whether to reward her with food when she brings it back or play with her first and then get her to release it? @Beanwood, @snowbunny, @Karen @JulieT do you have any advise for me? I will try to build it up in more exciting environments but will probably need to have her on a training line. Also I would like to try her with something feathered. Anyone have any advice on the best way to introduce it? In a sock or just as it is?
It sounds a bit to me as though you are playing a mixture of tuggy and retrieving - I wouldn’t have thought you’d want her to tug anything feathered? With tuggy (e.g. a rope toy) I wiggle it and say ‘play’ and we tug. Then I say ‘ready’ and Molly releases it. Then I say ‘play’ again and we tug again (I do occasionally throw it in the air for her to catch but then we immediately tug again.) When I want to stop I have a final tug, say ‘game over’ and she releases it and I give a food reward, and I put the toy away. This is the only time I give a food reward during tuggy now. When I was teaching her it when she was a puppy, I gave a treat every time she released her hold, until she got the idea that giving it to me meant she got it back. It’s great that it’s going so well with Cassie now.
I play tuggy-catch with Ella. Sometimes she wins and responds by shoving the toy back into my hands. Sometimes I ask her to leave it half way through, put her in a sit (she does this automatically now) and I back away saying "reaaaady, steaaaady, Go!" as I throw the toy to her. She breaks as I say "go", catches the rope and runs at me, shoving the toy at me again. When I'm done, I say "finished", take the toy and chuck her a couple of treats.
Thanks, yes, that's what I am doing, so think I'm on the right track. I am following the exercise in Retrieving for all Occasions, with good effect I think. The question about feathers is unrelated, I guess I didn't make that clear! It's just that she isn't interested in retrieving dummies in the great outdoors - in the house, or barn, or small paddock she will, I just would like to see if she is more interested in game when outside.
Thank you, I do say "all done" at the end. From what you both say I'm on the right track. It's a case of promoting her (fragile) interest in retrieving.
When you say that she is more interested in sniffing in the classes, is it more a tracking sniffing or just general displacement sniffing? If it’s the latter, the it may be more a case that she if telling you that she’s not happy in the group environment and is using the sniffing to disengage from you. It was one of the behaviours that I had to overcome. I did lots of repetitions of delivery of the dummy in the kitchen and garden and then a private field with hugely high food rewards so that the behaviour was very secure and was linked emotionally with great food. My dog would not play tug with me, was never interested in a ball and so I could only use food. I did use rabbit skin dummies for a while but I found that after the novelty wore off, so did the interest. He will now retrieve nicely in a class but is generally most enthusiastic when shot is used or a dummy launcher.
Gosh, that's a thought. I'm not sure I'd recognize displacement sniffing. The day before the last time we went I took her for a walk with an acquaintance and her 2 dogs which it turns out are allowed to pursue wildlife in the way which I have worked so hard to prevent Cass doing, and I was just about to call her to me and clip her lead on for a while, when one of them put up a muntjac and off they all went. I was beside myself, this person thinks it's ok. Anyway she did come back, I'm so pleased I did all that early recall training. So at the training I was nervous and didn't want to let her off her longline, this field is known to be grazed by deer and indeed there were some clearly visible in the adjacent field. On that day she wouldn't even watch the dummy being thrown or run out to it, which is not usually a problem. So I felt in a bit of a tiz. I'd say it was a hunting sniff, she ignored the dummy and ran round with her nose to the ground. Or maybe she was unhappy if I was anxious, it's food for thought. I just logged on to post a bit of an update. I decided to take tuggy toy for a walk with us, and waited for her to come to me and walk to heel voluntarily as she often does and then started to play with her -- she engaged very readily I'm happy to say. I took a chance and threw it ahead into the grass --quite long, and she very happily brought it back to me! I only did it once. So I do think ther's stuff to build on, and I need to pay more attention to the environment I'm asking her to do it -- eg this is just a cultivated grass field, where she often walks by my side as against the woods which are currently rife with deer scent and I need all my wits about me to keep her with me. Basic I know -- I could do with a light bulb emoji Interesting to hear about your training experience @Peartree
I find what you're doing with the tight games very interesting @selina27. I've been playing them with Inky at home in the house and garden. He gets very excited and loves the game although he'd rather hold it a bit near my hand! I thought I'd take it out to try to distract him from dog poo, result - not a hope! Even when we played where there wasn't poo, he wasn't nearly as engaged as he is at home.
@selina27 this really ↑ We are now progressing at a rate of knots with Bramble, and have gone from a fairly indifferent retriever ( unless on game then she is super excited!) to one with far more interest and confidence in retrieving dummies/other articles. I can't really really pin this improvement on one particular thing, however, quite a few changes happened both at home and with my training approach. Firstly I became more upbeat, happy with her no matter what. I also increased the reinforcement, high value treats, excited behaviour and lots of praise! I also worked hard on setting up her well, nicely to heel whilst giving clear cues (no faffing!!!). I made sure she was completely lined up for the send out, if this meant getting closer, all well and good. Reading Bramble was also important if there was any displacement behaviour going on we moved to something easier, but still went back to the exercise. It has been hard work, and a few weeks ago seriously contemplated giving up, but we just kept going, Bramble pulled some amazing performances out of the bag, so onwards and upwards!
I don't really want to give up But there's a lot about choosing the right environment, and being up beat
Yes, poor Bramble went completely flat...over sensitive...presenting with displacement behaviours, I was seriously worried. I think, like humans, dogs can go through ups and downs. I just had to take a good, long hard look at what was happening. I think there were a few things at home that may have had an impact on her behaviour as well.
I think I need to look at displacement behaviours. Perhaps given the muntjac chasing debacle I shouldn't have taken her to that setting the next day. I'm quite sure your right about ups and downs. I will carry on, as long as we both enjoy !
The thing is I realise now that picking the moment is important with her -- it's one of the things that I've learnt from the book, to utilize times when she's looking to engage with me anyway. I deliberately took that route to try tuggy outside again as she always comes back to me and walks to heel in that field -- goes back I think to our early recall off lead games. And I had a good result! As regards holding it close to your hand -- when I first did it with her as a puppy if her teeth touched my flesh, you had to stop the game and start from scratch again, so she learnt not to do that.
I think you might be mixing a couple of things up - which might be my fault, sorry, I think I pointed you towards Retrieving for all Occasions as an example of the dog pushing the toy back at you? I probably didn't go into enough detail. So, first, make up your mind what you are training: a) The beginnings of a hold and basic hand delivery by playing (including tug) with a toy as in RfaO b) Building up a game of tug as a means to have a motivating reinforcer These two things are different, and have different purposes - although both involve playing tug. (And the similarities are when the dog 'wins' the toy, the point is the dog runs back to you to play again). In terms of bringing just a game of tug to a stop, as in the game ends (not just a pause or the dog winning the toy), there are a few ways to do it and there are advantages and disadvantages depending on your dog. 1) Train a drop cue on something else - I favour this one myself and it's the one I used for Betsy who needed her desire for tug building up. I trained let go of a toy on whippit (because her desire for whippit is higher than for food). 2) Trade off for food - BUT if you are building desire to tug, the disadvantage with this is you pay with food for stopping tugging - this doesn't matter for a dog that has a high tug drive. I did this one with Charlie. 3) Train a release with the tug toy itself - to do this, make the toy go dead without letting it go, gently hold the dog's collar (you should already have trained a collar hold) and just wait. When the dog releases the toy you can start the game again, and then put the release prompted by the toy going dead on cue. I didn't use this for tug with Charlie, but I use it when he grabs other things and doesn't want to let them go. Never pull the toy away for a high drive dog - it increases desire.
