Hi folks, I have a yellow lab who is about 5 months old. We started giving him Natural Balance Vegetarian dog food since we got him from the breeder. He was eating well until recently. We have taken him to the vet regularly for all his shots and his weight is around 45+ pounds. According to the vet his growth is normal. About a week back he threw up what seemed like a round work in his crate. After that we took him to the vet who gave him a de-worming medication. Since then he has not been eating the normal diet (3 times a day 1.5 scoops of kibble mixed with pumpkin or rice or yogurt). He does not like the kibble anymore. Also yesterday night he threw up again and didn't eat for almost 12 hours and now slowly getting back to eating (soft diet). I hope he fully recovers. He was down today for the most part and now slowly recovering. I wonder if giving him the Natural Balance Vegetarian dog food is a good choice. I'm hesitant to change his diet. I hope this is a temporary phase. Also he has been losing his puppy teeth and probably going thru a painful phase. Otherwise he is a happy and active dog. Is this normal?
Why are you feeding your dog, a carnivore, a vegetarian diet?? Please don't impose your own beliefs on another animal with different nutritional requirements who has no say over what they are fed and has to eat what they are given. I have many friends who are vegans, and they feed their dogs a raw food diet, so it is absolutely possible to acknowledge that your dog has different needs than yours. And of course he doesn't like the kibble - he is supposed to be eating a very high meat content diet, not vegetarian food....
These were my thoughts..... we feed buddy a raw diet, he absolutely loves it and is doing really well on it. The only drawback to it has been the particular brand that the breeder was using had rice and veg in it and it comes out the other end just as it went in, he has also once or twice brought the veg and rice back up, so I can only imagine what would happen if we fed a vegetarian diet. Now that buddy has settled in we have started feeding a different brand that is almost all meat and bone and far superior to the one with ‘fillers’ innit, because that’s all they really are. I am sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, and if you are vegetarian I understand your values etc. But my reason for feeding raw is that quite simply I am a big believer in nature, and as Jo said, they are carnivores. I hope that this is of some help, and I’m no expert, but I do suspect it could be the diet?
I would underatand the need for feeding your dog vegeterian, if and only IF, you'd try every single meat and he would not do good on any. And by every I mean everything. Crocodile, horse, ostridge included. Dogs need meat, especially puppies, who grow very, very quickly. Proteines are the most important. If you can't understand that, the only one suffering is your puppy. P.S. @Browneyedhandsomebuddy you don't have to tell everyone everyday in every thread your dog eats raw. We all know it by now.
A Dog is a member of the Class Mammalia and the order Carnivore, as is the Car. However, there the similarity ends - cat is a true carnivore and requires meat to survive while dogs are regarded as omnivores. Although a diet containing meat protein is most desirable it is nutritionally possible to feed a dog a vegetarian or vegan diet - and that doesn't mean that I agree with feeding them such a diet just that a dog can thrive on diets containing a variety of foods.
I'm sorry that your puppy is not feeling well. May I ask what the Breeder was feeding the puppies while they were being weaned? While you have the ultimate decision making power over what you feed your puppy, there is a reason the breeder has chosen a certain brand of food for her lines. It is because that is what her line of dogs achieve the best outcome while being fed. Once the puppy comes to live with you, there are various things that go into your decision regarding feed, but as pointed out above, one of them should not be because you are a vegetarian. It should be based upon first, how well your individual dog does on the food, the availability of the food in your location, the nutrients included in the food and so on. Every puppy we've brought home in the last 12 years has done well on Purina Pro Plan except for the last one. Roamin (15 weeks tomorrow) began having issues with his stool his third week here just after we had completed his transition (over seven days) to our food from the Breeder's choice of food. We did the bland diet and fecal testing and antibiotics and probiotics, all to no avail. So, remembering a conversation I had with his breeder when the litter was three weeks old, I thought "hmm, she did say that her line doesn't do well on Pro Plan and have loose stools". So, I transitioned him back to the Breeder's food and within 24 hours, his stools became more normal and regular and the fist day of fully feeding him that food, were completely normal. So, my suggestion would be to seek the advise of the Breeder on this issue, consider putting the puppy back on the food she/he uses for her line or some other form of food with a meat as the first ingredient. Then see if all normalizes for your puppy.
Maybe jetsammer didn’t? I’m fairly new to the forum and I don’t know who else is new or not, or has read any of my previous posts. Also it was a reference to the veg in his particular brand, I do apologise.....
A Dog is a member of the Class Mammalia and the Order Carnivore, as is the Cat. However, there the similarity ends - a cat is a true carnivore and requires meat to survive while dogs are regarded as omnivores. Although a diet containing meat protein is most desirable it is nutritionally possible to feed a dog a vegetarian or vegan diet - and that doesn't mean that I agree with feeding them such a diet just that a dog can thrive on diets containing a variety of foods.
Sorry Jojo83, that's not true. You might want to read these links: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/can-dogs-be-vegetarians/ https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2015/09/27/pet-vegan-vegetarian-diet.aspx
Which bit is untrue @Jo Laurens ? That a dog isn't an omnivore or that they can't be vegetarian/ vegan? That dogs are 'carnivore' is one of the great myths in canine nutrition. Yes they are a carnivore in that they can meat but other members of the Order 'carnivora' are bears which are mainly omnivorous and giants panda who are mainly herbivorous. https://www.petmd.com/blogs/nutritionnuggets/jcoates/2012/apr/can_dogs_be_vegetarians-14995 https://www.hillspet.com/dog-care/nutrition-feeding/can-dogs-be-vegan
There have been some interesting studies done recently, on the topic of canine nutrition. The following is an extract from an article I wrote on the role of fat in a dog's diet. There are links to some interesting studies: Comparing wolf dietary preferences with dog dietary preferences A study published in 2015 looked at the nutrient preferences of wild wolves (Canis Lupus) It found that wolves have a nutrient preference for a diet that has a Protein/Fat/Carb ration of 54:45:1 In other words, wolves eat around half protein, and half fat, with only a trace of carbs in their diet. A study published in 2013 looked at the nutrient preferences of five breeds of domestic dog (Canis Lupus Familiaris) It found that domestic dogs have a nutrient preference for a diet that has a Protein/Fat/Carb ration of 30:63:7 In other words, dogs preferred fat above all other dietary components. They too had very little interest in carbs. Modern dogs and wolves share similar nutritional needs The study suggests that modern dogs, though able to cope with a modern starch filled diet, still have very similar macronutrient needs to those of their wild ancestors. A more recent study published in 2017 showed that over a more prolonged period of time dogs that at the beginning of the study chose to take 68% of their nutrients as fat, had reduced this percentage to 52% by day ten of the study. Meanwhile protein intake increased by 29% on day one to 44% on day two. A result that bore an even closer resemblance to the macronutrients in the diet of the wild wolf. Carbohydrate consumption by all the dogs in the group represented just 3% of their macronutrient intake Comparisons between the 2012 study and the 2017 study are interesting. They suggest the same initial preference for high fat diet levelling out to a fairly even fat / protein preference in dogs over time. In other words, the dogs ate a particularly high proportion of fat when first given access to it, but that levelled out after a couple of weeks. Do low fat diets for dogs cause cravings for high fat food? This may be because an initial preference for fat is beneficial to dogs during times of scarcity. Whatever the reason, it is worth bearing in mind that a dog that gets very little fat in his ordinary diet, may choose to eat a lot of it if given the chance. Something to bear in mind when changing your dog’s diet for any reason.
And here's a study that supports the view that it probably is possible to provide adequate nutrition with a well designed vegetarian diet, but it seems that many foods that lay claim to be such are falling short of the required standard My own feeling is that it is probably possible to keep a dog alive and healthy as a vegetarian, but that the optimum diet for a dog is most likely that enjoyed by his wild relatives. ie high fat and protein, and low carb.
I bought a "beyond meat" burger yesterday. It was lovely. I was tempted to try it when I read an article by the founder who said: "There's no mystery to meat," says Mr Brown. "It's amino acids, lipids, trace minerals and water. "And if you can deliver those four things in the same blueprint or architecture as muscle - why can't that be called meat?" What's in the vegetarian dog food, @jetsammer ?
But that's not the whole story reported in this study. It also says that: "Concerns about the nutritional adequacy of commercially available companion animal diets are not limited to vegetarian products." And also: "Those interested in vegetarian companion animal diets should be aware of concerns about the nutritional adequacy of some such diets demonstrated by a number of studies over a significant number of years. However, to ensure a balanced view, they should also be aware that similar concerns exist about commercial meat-based diets."
What an interesting thread! While I do feed meat to my three dogs, I would like a meat-free option. It is possible, and has already been mentioned it is a question of getting the balance right, especially wrt providing the right amino acids. It is getting more more of a struggle to introduce novel proteins that I worry simply aren't sustainable. The pet food industry is growing at an enormous rate...goodness knows what we will be feeding in 5 -10 years time. There are some interesting developments in the vegetarian pet food market, will be interesting to see how they evolve. In the meantime I will have to try a Beyond Meat burger, and the dogs will have to settle for that!
But I'm not getting the logic here. Just because there are concerns about some diets that contain meat, does that mean we don't need to be concerned about vegetarian diets? I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other. Of course it's possible to feed a poor diet which is meat based, but that's neither here nor there when talking about veggie diets. I'm not sure what your point is: Is it more important to classify dogs as carnivores/herbivores/omnivores and to nit-pick over what category they should be in and "therefore" what they should eat, or is it more important to determine what their ideal diet is and to feed that? Anyone who thinks an animal with sharp pointy teeth and few molars for grinding has evolved to eat carbs, is quite wrong - frankly. What about a meat-free diet do you think is suitable for feeding a dog? How do you think it meets a dog's nutritional needs...? Carbs are pretty awful for human health - look up the ketogenic diet... But that's a whole other subject.
Dogs need nutrients, not particular ingredients. The point is whether a diet has the right nutrients, and that applies equally to meat and veggie diets - the equally to veggie and meat diets is the relevant point. It's really illogical to just state that a veggie diet is lacking what a dog needs, and this would be avoided if a meat diet were fed instead - which is what most of the replies to the OP suggested. It might be lacking, it might not be. Just as for a meat diet.
I don't know what you're saying Julie? There are nutrients - like the full range of amino acids - which are only in meat... Carbs are very nutrient-deficient. They are mainly a source of energy and little else. All vegetarian dog foods are exceedingly high in carbs. It's not (mathematically or physically) possible for a dog to have a food that high in carbs which is also not deficient in essential nutrients.
Well the study posted by Pippa above disagrees with you. It says: Although special attention must be paid to ensure adequate levels of certain nutrients such as proteins, amino acids (e.g., taurine, carnitine, methionine, lysine, and tryptophan), vitamins (e.g., Vitamins A, B3, B9, and B12), minerals (e.g., calcium, iron, zinc, and copper), and certain fats [25], it is important to remember that dogs, cats—and indeed all species—require specific nutrients, rather than specific ingredients. There is—at least in theory—no reason why diets comprised entirely of plants, minerals, and synthetically-based ingredients (i.e., vegan diets) cannot meet the necessary palatability, bioavailability, and nutritional requirements of cats and dogs [25]. Indeed, a growing number of commercially-available diets [26] aim to do so. You could argue that you want your dog to eat a 'natural' diet (if you wish) but that's different from saying it's impossible for a vegetarian diet to contain everything a dog needs.
