I write this post with a very prominent ‘don’t want to speak to soon/under no illusions’ but... buddy has woken a little earlier than normal the past couple of days, nothing wrong, no runny poos or off food etc, so I guessed at 13 weeks and a good sized pup he might need to open his legs a bit more. The first long walks we did really tired him out so now might be the next stage, and I’ve been keen to get him off the lead in a good space. So off we went to a local dog field to give him a good run, took some toys etc. It was the first time I’ve used our ball chucker and an adult lab pinched our ball straight away! Absolutely no problem as buddy is used to tug toys and ropes etc at the moment so we just went about our business. For roughly half an hour, this chap spent it dishing out all his commands ‘come’ ‘drop’ ‘leave’ and his dog did not respond at all to it. He had both his own ball and buddy’s in his mouth the whole time. We have been all positive with buddy and been teaching recall wherever we can, not pulling on lead etc all with treats and praise. He was chasing all over this large field and every time I shouted ‘here’, without fail he ran to me like there was nothing else in the world. I was sooooooo pleased. When the owner of the other lab returned we chatted and I asked how old he was, 4 years he said!!! I then noticed some kind of collar/torture device. What baffles me was that he was clearly trying to use specific commands but getting absolutely nowhere, after 4 years! And this 13 week old pup was so well behaved. Now I am absolutely not one to call what anyone else is doing, and obviously, as a pup, we are buddy’s whole world, and he will come and stick near us, but this was a real eye opener. In the past I have quoted ‘balanced’ trainers on this forum, but I’m so new to this I genuinely didn’t fully understand it. But if there was ever an argument for positive over punishment, this was a glaringly obvious example. I realise buddy will test more as he gets older but I was chuffed to bits with him, and really shocked at the lack of cooperation with a 4 year old lab that was clearly trying to be taught by his owner! Obviously I also don’t fully understand the situation and hate to judge but just thought I would share this with you all.
Glad you are feeling confident to let Buddy off leash, and obviously, your hard work into recall is paying off. Don't let up on that reinforcement for recall, even when doing well! Enjoy while you can, as adolescence can be very trying for the most patient of dog owners! Just a note about these, especially for young pups, well for any dog really. They do encourage dogs to race and jump for balls, this repetitive action can be very detrimental for joints, especially young developing ones. A better way is to roll a ball gently for a few feet, hold your puppy, wait for the ball to stop rolling then release, better still, just hide the ball in some longish grass and encourage the pup to find it. With our pups, we played mostly fun focus games and worked on calm behaviours. These behaviours stand you in good stead when your puppy starts to feel more confident with the outside world, and less interested in you!
Hah. I've got a 5 year old dog, positively trained from the get go - and I am a seriously dedicated amateur trainer - that wouldn't give me a nicked ball back for love nor sardines! What I've learned, over the years is a lot, and it includes: A) Don't judge other people by the results they have - you don't know what their journey has been. B) Bad training is bad training, positive or traditional And.... A puppy recall is not an adult recall.
Thank you, yes I am aware over over exerting joints, and we will tailor his exercise regarding this, thanks for the advice, we’ll try what you said
Absolutely, as I said, I don’t judge. It wasn’t just a pinched ball, his dog simply didn’t listen to a word he said regarding anything, and it just made me think that the choke chain he had clearly wasn’t helping, wether the dog was his from puppy, or rescue, or whatever, just an observation really. Again, as I said, I’m only just beginning to properly understand training perspectives myself, there’s a big debate, and I find it interesting, and I’m open minded. And I also said that I’m under no illusions about buddy’s recall as he gets older, just that I won’t be bothering with a choke chain.
Yep, for sure. The thing is, and I know a lot of people will not agree - and that's fine - but in general, in my observations (how many caveats can I add here... ) dogs trained in a traditional way by serious amateurs are often more 'obedient' than dogs trained using positive reinforcement. That does not mean they are better off for it! It does not mean traditional training methods are 'better'. And their dogs may be a great deal worse off in loads of ways - it may seriously impact the quality of their lives and their relationships with their humans. What happens in traditional training is the human dishing out punishment become the threat of punishment, so the dog 'behaves' (obviously not in the dog you met, but this might be because the training was crap, or like my dog giving up a nicked ball is a bazillion times harder to train than for most people). This is (in my observations...caveat etc ) can be easier for people to achieve than those training with positive reinforcement, which requires much greater skills on behalf of the handler. That's what I mean by bad training is bad training - regardless of the method. I don't really think we win the argument over effectiveness (those training at the top of their sports very well might, but us lesser mortals probably will not). Where we win the argument is that we have happy, confident dogs, living lives enjoying human company, free from fear - and even if our training isn't effective (because we have crap timing, or lack consistency, or lives get in the way....), we still have that. If our training is effective, because we have great timing and are consistent, we are seriously up on the game!
Well, I almost put a question mark on my original thread title for all the reasons which you state. There are more ‘traditional’ trainers around whose argument still holds some weight for me. I am open minded to, well, anything in life really. I agree with everything you’ve said, and consistency is paramount to anything good we can achieve with our dogs that’s for sure. I have come to the positive route if for no other reason that I’m a soft bugger ha ha!
Well buddy woke a little bit later this morning but still quite early. I forgot that yesterday, and again this morning, that he goes straight for a chew and really grinds on it with a kind of ‘ahhhhhh’ (not growling) as he is chewing, I guess teething could be waking him up? (13.5 weeks?) sorry to veer off topic...
Well I'm going to try Yes, sometimes positive punishment works, but when it doesn't people tend to just continue punishing in the same way, or make it harsher. Whereas when someone using positve reinforcement has a failure, they will have to stop and think about why and how they can either reward in a different way, at a different moment, break the behaviour down into smaller steps, reduce distractions or distance etc. Having read your posts for a few years, I know you are personally committed to force-free training so I don't like to think of you advocating for 'the dark side' which is how your post could appear - see the reply to your thread from Browneyedhandsomebuddy saying that the opinions of traditional trainers still holds some weight with them.
I’m all for positive, and will commit to it 100%. I’m just so new to dog ownership and had no idea the vast difference of opinion on training, feeding, all sorts. I’m learning all the time, and touch wood we are doing ok. When I say some traditional arguments hold some weight, it absolutely doesn’t mean I’ll be using them, I just find the debate interesting. Like in a pack or in the wild, pups are ‘corrected’ by their mums etc, just things like that (please don’t think I’m advocating ‘the darkside’ Ha ha). My original post was just an observation, but as I first stated, I hate to judge and it isn’t something I do, more like ‘what on earth is the point of that torture device’ kinda thing. There will be very well trained dogs out there trained using traditional methods, and poorly trained dogs using positive, and vice versa, I understand that, and every dog is different. I never had any intention of using ‘forced’ training, before I even knew what it was. And I’m so glad I found this forum and the wealth of information out there. I’m sure there will be difficult periods as buddy grows, but everything we have done so far using positive is working well..... fingers crossed.....
But what you've done in read my post is think "oh she hasn't said that positive punishment is both the work of the devil and is ineffective". Just to be clear, I believe that positive punishment is the work of the devil. It often has dreadful fall out for the dog, is certainly unethical, and if the human involved ever really realised that s/he represents a threat to their much loved dog, dreadful fall out for the person. But it's not ineffective when used by a skilled, experienced person.
I think this is the problem.... when we first got buddy, my brother, who has a dog, said to me ‘don’t be afraid to give it a right good bollocking’..... hmmmm I thought. So a couple of weeks later he tells me his wife is baking a cake, spends all afternoon icing it etc, only to leave it for a minute and find the dog nose deep in it. Cue the ‘bollocking’ and even he said ‘it won’t make any difference’. So why do it then? Whose fault is that situation, it certainly isn’t the dogs. People think it’s ok to give dogs punishment for wanting them to live and think how we do. They are dogs, and think like dogs. And like you say, if they only stopped to think about it..... I did psychology at college and much of it was based around dogs, and really it isn’t rocket science if we can take the time to understand and appreciate how they think and behave. I do wonder where the line is drawn, it’s not quite black and white is it? Like exactly what is punishment, some take it to the extreme, shock collars, pinning dogs down, physical force, shoving noses in accidents, but some give a little noise and a poke, or a squirt of a water pistol if they are doing something untoward. I still believe even that is wrong though, who knows what fears we can instill in dogs doing anything like that. As I said, I have heard fairly compelling arguments from balanced trainers, and it is an interesting debate. But I absolutely never had any intention using any punishment long before we received buddy and before I really started to understand the in’s and out’s of it all, so it’s positive training for me 100%.
Absolutely, and it's a really interesting debate! I consider myself a bit of crap positive reinforcement handler, but I have seen some truly amazing achievements by very, very good ones The thing is, working with my dogs is just so much fun. I will never, ever look back and regret my training methods. I love the fact the everything single thing the dogs do for me is through their choice. Yes it has taken time, a steep learning curve combined with my ineptitude. I am fortunate though to have around me lots of excellent positive trainers to help and advise. This really stood out for me recently, when I attended an advance class run by a traditional trainer. The dogs were all very obedient. BUT....they were like frozen rocks just sat there, and all a bit close for my liking. We were all having a discussion at the time and stood in a circle, dogs sat at our sides. There was a lot of sharp looks if the dogs moved...and a fair bit of tugging of leads..nothing major, just very subtle. Bramble was different, whilst she was sat by my side..she was quite animated in her body language, mouth relaxed, tongue lolling out, wriggly but very relaxed. She did give me a few looks as if to say "what is wrong with them??" Now I am saying for a second that they didn't adore their dogs, of course they did, but this is how they train, have always trained, and it's a hard habit to break. At the end of the day, aversion training is also a very effective, and fairly simple way of training dogs. In this particular scenario I am referring to gundog training. Often handlers want to see results fast, clients want to have THAT dog who wins working tests at only 16 months old. Regarding the comment by the trainer "pups being corrected by their mums" the inference here being that it is OK for the human to play this role...is really outdated...actually absurd. We smell different, we don't communicate the same way. Mothers are very gentle with their pups, there are there to protect them with the patience of Job! I think this quote below sums this up quite nicely... "normal mother dogs do not scruff or shake their offspring. Rather, they shape the puppy’s behavior with a complex physical language which uses self-inhibition from the start. Good canine moms use visual signals or simply walk away; even their physical responses do not include actual biting. By the way, they are also extremely tolerant of puppy indiscretions and we could learn quite a lot from their patience" Ref: Reiser Veterinary Behaviour services LLC.
Thanks Beanwood, all interesting stuff, I was kind of looking for an opposed few of the mothers correction and you answered it perfectly and made perfect sense!
Yes, it's black and white. But in order to see you, you have to stop thinking in terms of "is a poke ok or not?" or "is shouting at a dog ok or not?" That's not what makes it clear. I have one dog who is near impossible to punish - apply an aversive sufficient to change his behaviour - and to actually do so would mean imposing a punishment of a scale that I certainly couldn't contemplate. I have another who finds all sorts of surprising things punishing. Like a dummy thrower turning his/her back. She thinks "Aw....I've done something wrong ". I avoid all forms of punishment when training her, including negative punishment. It's actually been really good for me. Having my first dog, where it didn't ever really matter if an occasional 'Ah-Ah' slipped out (didn't make any difference whatsoever), now training a dog that will let me know immediately if she finds something aversive has really cleaned up my training.
