hi there Our Bonnie is now 12 months, and although she has improved in behaviour around the house, other areas need improving!! I’ve posted before about her jumping up at people and being mouthy, which has improved definitely, but she is still going over threshold sometimes in certain situations. Such as: She has had a really good long walk, with plenty of play off lead, hide and seek, fetch etc. Then walking home from the forest on the lead, we see a neighbour that wants to chat, and Bonnie just loses the plot with excitement, she won’t stay down, pulls and lunges, then nips me because I’m holding her back. You’d think she’d be worn out, but no, telling her NO, SIT, just doesn’t do it. I end up walking away saying sorry, I won’t let the person say hello to her in case she hurts them, and also because I think she shouldn’t be rewarded with a pat/stroke for being so naughty. Also Her recall off lead has been good recently, up until this weekend, seeing other dogs has become too distracting and we haven’t been able to get her back, she plays “deaf” completely, and runs around with the other dog having fun, which is nice of course for a while, we want her to have fun and run around, but we’ve been having to physically grab her on the last few occasions to get her on the lead away from playing with other dogs. I think she needs some lessons in controlling herself, learning some impulse control, she gets so excited to play. Thanks, all advice welcome!
My little Holly will be 1 year old next week, and she sounds very similar to your Bonnie. She is pretty good around people (not great, but good) but she completely loses it for other dogs. We will have a nice calm walk and then she will see dogs and starting pulling on the leash, biting the leash, and trying to run to the dogs. I am working on the same issues you are. And I just posted about her still being mouthy at this age. Not terrible, but more than I remember with my last lab. Holly likes to nibble on me for attention and when she gets very hyper put my arm in her mouth. Not hard by any means, but sometimes hard enough to hurt. At least I know I am not alone.
Hi a really good read. With regards to losing the plot, sometimes the dog can still have adrenaline going round their bodies and it can be tricky for young dogs to control themselves and keep going with the commands and you should see a change. I have a 14 month old chocolate lab and he used to jump up and get lead etc but I stayed firm and now he barely misbehaves. Or like someone said on here maybe don’t chat for too long hah. We have similar issues with recall and I’m sure the Pippa book will help too
Hi @Caro A and @RMBIII I suggest you look at the thread entitled Look at That training found under Labrador Training. The thread has a good deal of useful discussion about the method. The LAT method can be used for dogs that are over-aroused, And the thread includes a very helpful video on the method.
I don't think "impulse control" is a thing. I know that the internet is littered with references to teaching dogs "impulse control" but it makes no sense to me. I have two dogs and they are massively different. They couldn't be more different, really. Charlie dog could not care less about birds, deer, squirrels etc. Betsy, the other dog, is mad for chasing all of these. Charlie is crazy for balls, and dummies. Betsy likes them a lot, but only because bringing them back has been heavily associated with sardines. Charlie couldn't care less about people or strange dogs, if they are particularly honoured, the royal personage might say hello. He expects people to be very grateful. Betsy goes mad for people and other dogs.... So, what does "impulse control" for my dogs mean? Well, for Charlie it means training that a ball DOES NOT mean get the ball, it means something else (SIT STILL ). For Betsy it means training that when she sees another dogs she returns to Mum. And so on. I think breaking things down into the things the dog finds difficult, and training around that thing is the way to go. So, Bonnie sounds like Betsy around new people (or any people). You can't just stop and chat without your dog going nuts. Neither can I, and Betsy is 2 now. So I don't stop and chat, but what I do do is work through a programme of working towards being able to do this. But it's not some vague "impulse control" programme. It's about being able to cope with people.
I don't understand your argument JulieT. It seems to me what you have argued is that impulsive behaviour is subjective and dog specific. For what it is worth, I agree. But how does that imply that impulse control is not a useful term? Doesn't it just mean that Impulse control exercises will be dog specific?
Well, I don't think "impulse control" is a useful term, no. But lots of people do, of course. I think it is more useful to think in terms of cues. If a moving ball cues your dog to chase it, you have to work on a moving ball being a cue to do something else. Just for example. When people talk about teaching "impulse control" they usually (not always) mean a set of exercises, usually based around negative punishment, designed to teach the dog that it shouldn't move towards something it wants. If you push them (and I have ) they often come up with a load of gobbledegook about whether or not they are cueing the dog, or the dog is making a choice - and it becomes a bit, well, gook that has been gobbled. I think that's a very long winded way to go about it. Much more helpful, and a great deal quicker, to think about what is a cue for your dog, and concentrate on that.
Hi @JulieT from my kennel, I see what you are doing ,and you are just teaching impulse contro, albeit properly considered, except you have a descrption rather than a succinct term. By all means your prerogative.
Mmmm.....I think it's pretty different. The term 'impulse control' is far too general to be useful - it suggests that you are broadly training a skill, not something specific. While that might be possible (although I have my doubts to be honest) it is way more precise to set out to train that something in the environment should cue a certain behaviour from a dog. It's the difference between saying "I'm going to train impulse control" - no clue what the trainer has in mind to train that, could be a million different things, and "I'm going to train the movement of a ball to be the cue to sit" which is meaningful.
Hi @JulieT I believe we are in agreement. I think you have might have let those gobbledegook handlers, who have apparently misappropriated the term, led you to believe that it is something else. Here's a passage quoted directly from AKC website https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/teaching-your-pup-self-control/ "Impulse control can be described as self-control for your dog. Teaching your dog to have self-control can be useful in many situations! Impulse control helps your dog to wait patiently for things that he really wants. It can also help him learn to stay calm when exciting things happen. Impulse control is a wonderful and simple behavior to teach any dog. Discussed below are several simple training techniques to help teach impulse control to your pet. Exercise 1: Crate and Doorway Rushing When you initially enter the area where your dog’s crate is located or when you go to the doorway, give your dog a few minutes to settle down. Once he is settled, ask the dog for a sit or down. When the dog is in the sit or down position, slowly open the door. If the dog gets up to go through the door, close the door and ask him to sit or down. Repeat opening the door; if he gets up, place him back into the sit or down. Initially, you may need to repeat these steps multiple times before the dog will stay in the desired position until the door is open. As you continue the training, the number of times your dog needs to be reminded will decrease. Once the door is open, give your dog his release command, and allow him to come through the door." Maybe I'm confused, but isn't this exercise precisely what you believe is an appropriate way to train a dog for the meaning of certain cues. I think we essentially agree what impulse control means, although you do not want to use the term. If other handlers think it just means teaching a sit-stay for 30 or 60 seconds in a low-distraction and familiar environment, then they don't understand the term. On this website we can set out the proper application of the term.
@Caro A, one of the hardest times I have found with my dogs is when they hit adolescence, so the period from about 8 months to 18 months, or longer! They are more excitable and confident. Hormones has some influence over this, a bit like humans! Each dog though is very much an individual, and their responses to triggers...people, other dogs, horses, footballs...are different. Some more arousing than others squirrel vs. football..... It does take time and patience, planning, then more planning! Sometimes even then, our environment can trip us up. Let's use your example, walking nicely to heel, an exciting person comes round the corner, and someone you know, so even your emotional response can kickstart a reaction. Your dog becomes over-aroused lunging and pulling towards the "exciting thing". It is very hard not to be "negative" in this situation, saying NO, pulling back on the lead etc...because nothing you are doing is "matching" the behaviour in terms of reward, the reward in this case is getting to the "thing" whatever it is...person, dog etc. I think the "matching law" has been mentioned here somewhere recently, but it is really interesting stuff! The other part of this, well for me certainly is history of reinforcement, and blimey this has to be high and very consistent! For me a combination of matching law, history reinforcement in a specific scenario where my dog struggles = impulse control. Simply is my cue strong enough for my dog to walk nicely beside me when we have a specific trigger (for want of a better phrase in this case a person you know) up ahead? hmmmm.... So back to your dog. How much training have you done with other people? If you have had a long walk, lots of play, freedom, then it's probably expecting too much be calm, while you chat briefly with your neighbour. You either could "lure" your dog past with a REALLY high value treat literally on their nose (dog, not neighbour!) note this is just management, or give yourself a bit of space between you and your neighbour, enough that your dog can manage. Don't expect too much! Training for this scenario, maybe enlist your neighbour or a friend to help you with this. With your assistant at a distance that your dog is able to be calm, (a good test is can they take food?) reward your dog with a high value treat. The rate of reinforcement will need to be high. This will need a number of repetitions at distance. Then your neighbour gets a bit closer...rinse and repeat...you probably get the picture at this stage! I use the "look and dismiss" in training this, so reward the dog for looking at the trigger THEN looking back at me. It does take time and patience. Note if your dog is able to jump up at someone, this will reinforce this behaviour. In emergencies I have simply stood on one end of the lead, I don't like it, but sometimes needs must. In this video the dog is rewarded for looking at people...you can see the handler is offering a really high rate of reinforcement. Look and dismiss...
This bit though is indeed gobbledegook (I'm absolutely fine with the AKC being guilty of gobbledegook, and unsurprised It is talking about impulse control as though it is a "thing". Like it is something you teach. It actually says that, it says: teaching your dog to have self-control. Like, you sit down with the dog and say "right, let's do an impulse control lesson". And that is indeed what the average pet owner thinks - that you teach impulse control. No. Definitely not. They are describing a technique involving negative punishment, and a degree of positive punishment, to make the dog stay sitting when a door is opened. It's a really old fashioned way to go about it, and a really great description of what exactly is wrong with the concept of impulse control.
@Michael A Brooks - Kay Lawrence explains the difference so much better than I can. Here, she is talking about the so called "impulse control" training around food where the food has been removed (as the door closed in your example above The pup or dog will see an opportunity to take a piece of food, in the hand, at the table or on the floor and “make the error” of trying to get it. When doing so the opportunity is removed, in a variety of ways some more obnoxious than others. The outcome is a dog that is now confused on the presentation of the stimuli: food in the hand, and hands in general. And so: The dog will begin to hesitate when they scent food is in the environment and likely begin to wonder what they should NOT do, rather than the same stimulus trigger thoughts of what they CAN do. If we believe the marketing and wishful thinking this is supposed to teach impulse control.... The whole article, and a great video of how she trains cues instead of impulse control is here: https://www.learningaboutdogs.com/better-than-it-was/
Hi @JulieT I have been considering your response, Laurence's piece and her accompanying video. Let me say at the outset that I appreciate your time and effort to the on-going exchange. I think I can see your kennel clearly now, and for the first time I appreciate the difference in our positions. I believe that impulse control is a concept that describes a decision maker's attempt to control short-term preferences. Suppose I have a weight problem. My short-term preference or impulse if you will is to eat the chocolate bar disregarding my long term preference to control my intake of kilojoules. In terms of my reflective equilibrium I wish to control my impulsive behaviour. I, the reflective self, have two fundamentally ways of dealing with the opportunistic short-term self. I can use positive punishment. Some individuals join diet plans, and contractually agree to pay a third party an amount of money should their weight increase. In order to make the case clear, imagine as in the story of Ulysses and the Sirens, my long-term self hires a monitor who levies fines every time I consume a chocolate bar. If the expected punishment outweighs the expected gain from eating the chocolate bar, then I can control my impulsive short-term whims. Alternatively, I can use positive reinforcement. Every time I longingly look at the chocolate bar and pass it by, then the monitor places an amount of money in an interest-bearing deposit account. If the present value of the monies deposited in the bank outweighs the loss in satisfaction from the forgone chocolate, then the reflective self could opt for such a scheme. With only modest changes, the basic premises set out above can be applied to Laurence's road speeding problem. Significantly, note that the concept of impulse control is defined independently of the means the individual might use to control one's short term self. Laurence and you wish to define impulse control as involving punishment. You conflate the concept with the method one might use to control impulsive behaviour. You and Laurence are, of course, free to define terms anyway you like. But I don't find that helpful. Communication is not enhanced if you define words to mean anything you wish. The AKC definition is not perfect but is in line with common usage: impulse control means a desire to observe and carry out long-term preferences over short-erm whims. It is defined independent of the policy used to better the reflective long-term preference. There is a deep-seated inconsistency in Laurence's argument that is worth exposing. As indicated she wants to use the term impulse control when the method involves punishment, and just teaching a cue when positive reinforcement is used. She proudly proclaims that her method of training is "positive" all the way. She overlooks that it is the dog not the trainer who decides what is a reward and punishment. In her method she advocates lifting the lid on the food source and placing it out of reach of the dog. If the dog expects to be feed as soon as the food source is opened because that is what has happened in the past, then the withdrawal of the immediate food represents negative punishment. But if that is so, then her method is not just teaching another cue but must, by definition, be impulse control. Laurence and you can avoid the problem by separating the concept from the method used to control impulsive behaviour. In doing so you can focus on positive reinforcement as a method of achieving impulse control without running into dilemmas of your own making. One might quibble that the dog might not have any such expectation, and that her training method can be positive all the way. No so. The problem of negative punishment will emerge in the transition from continuous to intermittent reinforcement. There is a more general problem of conflating concepts used to describe behaviour and the means used to achieve those actions. If you and Laurence want to delineate concepts in terms of reinforcement versus punishment, then why stop at impulse control. There should be one term for down, stand, sit, recall, when one uses guiding/compulsion as the training method, and just teaching a cue when using luring or shaping. I can't see how such a position results in clear communication. Doesn't our exchange here in which I thought I was in agreement with you, but now see the divide bear witness to the confusion resulting from Laurence's approach?
You have so very missed the point. You have so missed the point that I struggle to even start to explain the difference between what people think of as 'impulse control' and training cues. Have you even read the right article, I wonder....the speeding punishment one is about a different point.... Much as I do appreciate the debates with you, I honestly don't know where to start. So, I'm not going to. Best wishes.
I understand Michael's confusion, but I (think) I also understand what Julie is saying and I do agree with her. Impulse control is just a buzz word and is no more than just training a dog to behave in a desired way around things they want. That's what dog training is... But, let's get back to helping @Caro A Please don't ask her to do behaviours in this type of situation (like down, sit etc) - because you will only destroy your training. She will either totally ignore you, or she will do the behaviour and get up without having been released by you - you are just setting her up to not listen to you, and to practise breaking stays. Instead, I highly recommend you follow Michael's original advice with the Look At THat training - there is a whole thread on it. And yes, you will need to not say hello to this person, until your training has progressed. Long-line. You need a 10m long-line - preferably a biothane one, which won't absorb water - and you need that on your dog at all times. If you recall her back and she ignores it, you grab the long-line and prevent her from reaching what she is going towards. You are again training her to ignore you, with what you are doing: You are calling her, she is not coming and then she is getting a huge reinforcement for NOT coming by playing with the other dog. The only solution is to be able to prevent her from reaching the other dog - and to do that, you need a long-line. I'd also suggest less contact with other dogs generally, and focussing on training. Dogs are learning what is reinforcing and if you allow her to learn how amazing play with other dogs is, that is what she is going to seek out...
Wow thanks everyone, that’s a lot to take in... I’ve been practicing on LAT with Bonnie over the last couple of weeks, I will keep persevering! She’s 13 months now, still a pup, but a big strong one, and I need her with more control. I’m hoping I might be able to get back to some obedience classes in the spring to help out, when I took her in January she just spent the whole time over threshold, it was a nightmare, hope to see some calmer behaviour by the spring Thanks
Hi @Caro A if she is over threshold next time at the obedience class, then attempt to reduce her arousal level by increasing your distance from the group. If you succeed in getting calming behaviour, then Yes plus treat. Overtime you should be able to get closer and closer to the other dogs and handlers. If in the attempt to get distance, you lose the ability to hear the instructor, then ramp up the value of the treats rather than exploiting the advantage of distance. Alternatively,, use a combination the two strategies. Experiment to see what works. But don't quit the class. A good instructor will help you.
Our local training folks have pens that can be borrowed for dogs who are too excited being in the same room with other dogs. That's an option I would consider asking about before taking a class
That's a good idea @Tank the Destroyer. One of the training classes I go to encourage the use of soft crates if dogs struggle with the group environment. These dogs are used to a crate, so not such a large step for them. They are quietly rewarded for calm whilst in their crate. It is a system I have seen work well
