We have a 17-month old working Lab bitch (Maia) who is very driven and very strong, both mentally and physically. Her breeding is Drakeshead and Thunderlands. I've been working really hard for months with a local trainer and behaviourist, working 1-2-1 and in small groups. We seem to make a little bit of progress every so often, but Maia is still completely unpredictable and unreliable. As she is so driven, the slightest scent (deer or pheasant) and she is off, though she does at least come back, normally within a minute or two. But as we near the start of the pheasant season, her disrupting local pheasants is not going to make us very popular. Sometimes, she just decides that she's not going to do what I want at all, at which point I just turn and head for home as there's no point in rewarding or reinforcing bad behaviour. Training and walking her is, to be honest, not a lot of fun at the moment because I never know what she's going to do next. She can be good as gold for a whole session, but the next time out she seems to have forgotten everything. The trainer and I have come to the conclusion that Maia is just not interested in pleasing humans - her interests lie purely with hunting and food (all training is reward-based). Any ideas?
Hi and welcome to the forum @Rob Pile! What are your goals with Maia, are you looking to work her yourself? You mention you have been working her really hard in sessions, just wondered what that actually looked like? Also wondering what training do you do at home? What sort of games do you play What makes you think Maia is not interested in humans? It is good that you have identified some clear reinforcers, which are hunting and food. How is the food reward delivered? If you have a highly driven dog (meaning prey/hunting) then trying to do anything in a highly stimulating environment at this stage of your training might be a bit too much, especially at just 18 months.
Hi @Rob Pile I agree with @Beanwood. You are training too close to the distraction for your dog's current level of fluency and maturity. I would try increasing the distance to the distraction in an attempt to increase the relative value of your primary reinforcers.Work towards the distraction only when she performs. Alternatively pick an area in which you believe the distractions will be less. If you work in a new area, then you should use continuous reinforcement. Transition to intermittent reinforcement. Only then move to another area with a slightly higher level of distraction. Remember it is not we humans that determine the level of distraction. It is the dog. So read her body language. Last have patience. You said sometimes she's wonderful. That MEANS your training is working. Don't expect a continuous upwards trajectory.
This ^^ Made me smile...I have a similarly bred girl, and when she is good, she is outstanding...when she is bad...I just want to pack up my things and give up! She will be three in December and has matured into a lovely girl, we both really enjoy each other's company. Our breakthrough came when I just stood back and with the help of a couple of excellent trainers worked out what really motivated her and went from there. I mistook her being calm..for being calm..actually, it wasn't, she was just disengaged and worse disinterested. The only other gear we appeared to have was "Oh look at that dot on the horizon...that's my dog!" Not only that, if you threw a dummy, she would be like...you want me to actually get that???
Hi I'm hooked @Beanwood . What really did motivate her, and how exactly did you use that in your own training?
I doubt any dog works to "please humans". Why would they? For sure, neither of my dogs works for that. One of my dogs will work like a demon for a dummy - or a dead pheasant. It has to be dead (or shot and nearly dead if still running at least) because if it's still alive he can't pick it up, so just what is the point of that? And that's interesting for a retriever - a drive for live pheasants, or any live game, is really a bit pointless in a retriever, so it does make me wonder about what people mean by 'drive'. I don't think 'prey' drive is very relevant for a retriever. I don't buy the the often trotted out link between prey and retrieving....yes, yes, yes, I know. Everyone says it, trots out the eye, stalk, chase...blah blah, everyone boosts/moans about prey drive. But just think about it, think about what we want in a retriever, a dog with a high prey drive is going to make a crap retriever. I think retrieving is about a drive for play - and a drive for playing with a human. So that's a good place to start. Playing with your dog.
But why is this able to happen? I can pretty much guarantee that if you asked any gundog whether they would rather be running around in the undergrowth looking for birds and deer, or doing heelwork, they would pretty much all answer the former - if they could speak. One of the very first most fundamental parts of training a dog as a gundog - especially using force-free methods - is prevention. You absolutely must be able to 100% (or thereabouts) prevent the unwanted behaviour from occurring until it has become a distant memory (been extinguished). If you know she is liable to run off and chase or hunt for things, she should be trailing a 10m biothane long-line at all times which you can grab the second she ignores you. You should also not be 'walking the dog' - at all - if you have this problem especially - because 'walking the dog' is a synonym for 'teaching the dog to be interested in everything in the environment and not in me, the handler'. My young Labrador didn't have a single walk until she was 3 years old. Yes, really. Every day, we might practise heelwork to the field - releasing to go-sniff as a reinforcer - we might practise sit-stay whilst I set up a retrieving exercise, we would do the retrieving exercise (lots of physical exercise running retrieves) and then - perhaps at the very end of the session and if I felt she was adequately focussed on me, I would release her to run for a FEW MINUTES in a specific small area. There is no way we would take long walks through grounds teeming with game.... And then, you also need to be sure you have used tasty enough treats to reinforce the recall and make it worth her while to stop hunting. Like sardines, paté, smoked mackerel, gourmet wet dog food... and so on. Cheddar and frankfurters may well not cut it, when environmental distractions are high.
Hi everyone - thank you for all your advice and comments - really appreciated. Sorry for the slow response but I've been dealing with a bit of a family crisis over the past week. In answer to various points raised, and in no particular order: My aims for Maia are to have a good picking-up dog that I can help on local shoots with, maybe once a fortnight during the season, but she's also got to be a good 'pet' dog like her predecessor was as we travel all over Europe with our dogs [Maia has already been camping in Switzerland this summer]. Maia will also occasionally be used for tracking wounded deer, though hopefully this won't be needed very often (as I don't take questionable shots when I'm stalking). At home we don't 'go for walks' as a rule - we walk on the lead to a field where I have permission to do training, and then do a session of training (30-40 minutes) before walking back home again on the lead. We only have a small garden, and I don't have any of my own land (if only...), so I cannot control the boundaries or what goes on around the training areas. We live in an area (the Cotswolds) which is overrun with deer, and there are also three different pheasant shoots surrounding the village. When we're training I try to avoid the most scent-filled areas and the regular deer paths, but it's simply not possible to avoid all distractions. We also normally clear any pheasants from the ground first - this is done very gently and steadily on the lead, keeping well back from the birds, as I thought this would help to make live pheasants less interesting to Maia i.e. the pheasants are just normal and boring. When Maia was very young (4-5 months) we realised that she had hip dysplasia (just goes to show that the best breeding in the world doesn't always work out). From then until she was about 12 months old she was on 95% lead-only walking, as well as hydrotherapy and physiotherapy to try to build up the hip muscles and protect the joint. This has been pretty successful, and we all hope that she will have many years before further intervention is required (if ever). However, it did mean that she didn't have much of a puppyhood. Various people have suggested that she is still young for her age and that this might be why she is pretty hard work still. I wonder if there is a connection here? I'd cut back on the super-reward treats a bit because I had started to wonder if the high levels of protein that this was giving Maia might be making her even more excitable. Perhaps this was wrong, and I actually need to increase the quantity and quality of super-rewards? She's also on Valerian and Skullcap tablets (on the advice of both vet and behaviourist) to try to relax her a bit and help her to concentrate. When I say that we work hard in the training sessions with the trainer, I mean that as well as doing exercises we (Maia, the trainer and I) also do a lot of thinking, talking and trying to be calm whilst watching the other dogs and handlers. I didn't mean that we train solidly for an hour or more. Before I let her 'go play', I do always treat her to remind her who's got the treats. This does work (I think), to the point where when I take the slip lead off and say 'go play' she doesn't actually go anyway until she has had a treat. Not sure if that's good or bad... Maybe it's not that she's young for her age - may be she's just still young? She can be good, even really good, so maybe I'm just expecting too much from her at this stage. She is properly hard work though
Hi Rob... Here are some thoughts about some of the things you've said... I would really recommend looking into the training offered by the Bavarian Mountain Hound Society, who offer qualifications and training for dogs tracking wounded deer - based on tests run on the continent. Here you go: http://www.bmhs.org.uk/training--tests.html All breeds are welcome. Excellent, this sounds very good. Assuming you are getting good focus from her at the moment, I would suggest you do the opposite to this, now - deliberately seek out scent-filled and distracting locations and really work on engagement and focus, in those locations. You gotta work those distractions. By the way, there is an excellent online course on Engagement starting at the moment, at the Fenzi Academy: https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/4338 It's about £50 at Bronze level for access to all the lectures, videos and training exercises. I highly recommend it. That's why it's extra important to be using a 10m long-line - if you can't control other stuff coming near you, then you have to be able to prevent your dog going to other stuff.... Believe me, training a HPR using force-free methods is a whole other level on all this - since close contact with game before the shot is involved. With a lab, HPR folk would think you have it easy! Yes for sure, if she has felt frustrated and restrained from things she wanted to get to, when she was younger, then she may well really value being able to run about in an out of control way whenever she can(!). There is no correlation between protein levels and excitement or behaviour issues etc etc - hence why so many of us feed raw - which is almost entirely meat/protein, without having over-excitable dogs. For recall treats, I use sardines, smoked mackerel, paté, gourmet wet dog food - squishy stinky stuff gets the best results, delivered with a plastic toddler spoon. It depends what the cause of her behaviour is. If you think there is any anxiety behind it, then supplements like this can be effective (although there are others I'd recommend with more research behind them), but if her behaviour isn't derived from anxiety but instead exuberance or happiness or just not being trained well enough, then no supplements are going to make any difference... If you can just harness her drive and energy to work for you, rather than against you, you will have a fantastic dog - so it's definitely worth the effort.
Thanks for all your suggestions, Jo. I did some training with the BMHS with Maia's predecessor, so will definitely go to them in due course. I have a nylon long-line which I was using before when she wasn't bringing dummies back to me, but she seemed to have got past that issue so I stopped using it (not to mention nearly slicing my finger off with it!). I will go back to using it (and some super-rewards) to try some anti-distraction training.
Hi This might be a stupid question, but if you use a biothane line then do you not have the issue of high speed nylon?
Rob no stupid questions in dog training. The answer is no. The texture is different.. it is much smoother than nylon.. And it is thicker so there is not a sharp edge For what it is worth I don't like biothane at all. My hands perspire and the lead slips through my fingers, even when I loop the lead over my thumb and close my fist. I wouldn't use nylon line. Potentially dangerous for the dog's legs as well as your hands. I use a cotton weave long line, which has the texture of a horse lunge line. I appreciate that it does not last like biothane does, but such long lines are not expensive.
Biothane lines are thick and rubbery. They don't absorb water or get sticks or leaves stuck to them - unlike fabric long lines of any type. They also pull free of bushes or trees etc and tend not to snag - again because there is less to catch up on things, it is smooth rubber. You also won't get rope burn from them, but they may have less traction to hold in your hands. However, I don't recommend you use a long-line by actually walking along and holding it - that's not going to be very comfortable - instead, drop it on the floor and let the dog trail it. It is an insurance policy - if the dog ignores you, you can grab it... often just standing on it is enough, depending on your dog's velocity(!). For me, the benefits mean they are the best long-line for practising general control off-leash. Be sure to get a 10m one, or your dog won't get very far from you.
